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Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

Quasistellar wrote:
Bah, the ranger/vanguard thing is an extreme nothing burger in the grand scheme.

The real issue I'm seeing with this codex is the keyword confetti going on.

I mean kataphron servitors. . . what the heck? Biker, Troop, Cult Mechanicus, but not Core?

Mars gives Skitarii canticles, which kinda makes it default best again, since most things in the codex are Skitarii?

The Doctrina pluses and minuses but no minuses if you have a Marshall?

Kastelan robots becoming more mix and match, but now their shoulder gun and fist guns have different profiles, they can become Core with the Datasmith, but lose Core if they change programming?

There are so many things to remember with this codex, and a lot of it seems like complication for complication's sake. I mean seriously, taking the Datasmith should let you change programming during the command phase, period. That would have been enough to justify taking him. Just get rid the gaining/losing Core thing completely. Talk about a wasted opportunity to fix the thing that people have always not liked about Kastelans and the Datasmith together, while adding a totally different reason to take the Datasmith that's probably even more powerful because of the override strat.

Oddly the Transvector transport splitting a unit between two planes seems really complex at first, but then it's all done pre-game and set up into deep strike, so it's actually not really something that you can screw up during the game. It's just wild that you can even do it at all! Seriously what a crazy idea that actually made it into the codex.

But the Robots don't lose <Core> when they change programming, where did you read that ? To gain <Core> they just have to be within 3" of the Datasmith.

Though I agree the protocol swap that takes a full turn is inconvenient but Binharic Override still exists. And anyway, if you want to run melee Kastelan (they're really great now), on first turn you switch protocols while you Datasmith is still nearby, then on turn two you make the Robots move with their 8" move, and make the Datasmith Advance to keep the 3" <Core> Aura. It's harder when you want to make the Robots charge though, they'll totally outrun him.

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





Spoletta wrote:
Whatever the reason is, I very much doubt that "Let's screw with existing units" is part of the equation. GW knows perfectly well that when player reshapes that unit, he will do that by scrapbuilding or hunting bits. GW will not see a penny for that.


Not all. And they don't need for all to make profit. 1/1000 is enough.

The mere fact gw sells a lot from their webstore shows not all go for cheapest and many won't remodel painted models anyway.

2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Aaranis wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
Bah, the ranger/vanguard thing is an extreme nothing burger in the grand scheme.

The real issue I'm seeing with this codex is the keyword confetti going on.

I mean kataphron servitors. . . what the heck? Biker, Troop, Cult Mechanicus, but not Core?

Mars gives Skitarii canticles, which kinda makes it default best again, since most things in the codex are Skitarii?

The Doctrina pluses and minuses but no minuses if you have a Marshall?

Kastelan robots becoming more mix and match, but now their shoulder gun and fist guns have different profiles, they can become Core with the Datasmith, but lose Core if they change programming?

There are so many things to remember with this codex, and a lot of it seems like complication for complication's sake. I mean seriously, taking the Datasmith should let you change programming during the command phase, period. That would have been enough to justify taking him. Just get rid the gaining/losing Core thing completely. Talk about a wasted opportunity to fix the thing that people have always not liked about Kastelans and the Datasmith together, while adding a totally different reason to take the Datasmith that's probably even more powerful because of the override strat.

Oddly the Transvector transport splitting a unit between two planes seems really complex at first, but then it's all done pre-game and set up into deep strike, so it's actually not really something that you can screw up during the game. It's just wild that you can even do it at all! Seriously what a crazy idea that actually made it into the codex.

But the Robots don't lose <Core> when they change programming, where did you read that ? To gain <Core> they just have to be within 3" of the Datasmith.

Though I agree the protocol swap that takes a full turn is inconvenient but Binharic Override still exists. And anyway, if you want to run melee Kastelan (they're really great now), on first turn you switch protocols while you Datasmith is still nearby, then on turn two you make the Robots move with their 8" move, and make the Datasmith Advance to keep the 3" <Core> Aura. It's harder when you want to make the Robots charge though, they'll totally outrun him.


Performing an Action (which is what changes robot programming) switches of Auras, and the thing that gives Kastelans CORE is an Aura.

It's like they tried as hard as possible to give the Datasmith a purpose in the most complicated way possible, while not removing the downside that always prevented people from taking him before. I mean, the downside was paying the points for him, but there was (and still is) a second downside of the programming not actually switching until the NEXT turn. And now there's a THIRD downside of when you switch programming, you lose the thing that actually makes him somewhat worth it again in 9th. It's maddening, lol.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





tneva82 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Whatever the reason is, I very much doubt that "Let's screw with existing units" is part of the equation. GW knows perfectly well that when player reshapes that unit, he will do that by scrapbuilding or hunting bits. GW will not see a penny for that.


Not all. And they don't need for all to make profit. 1/1000 is enough.

The mere fact gw sells a lot from their webstore shows not all go for cheapest and many won't remodel painted models anyway.


I'd wager that the people who buy from the webstore are not the ones concerned about their weapon loadouts.

   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






 Aaranis wrote:

But the Robots don't lose <Core> when they change programming, where did you read that ? To gain <Core> they just have to be within 3" of the Datasmith.

Though I agree the protocol swap that takes a full turn is inconvenient but Binharic Override still exists. And anyway, if you want to run melee Kastelan (they're really great now), on first turn you switch protocols while you Datasmith is still nearby, then on turn two you make the Robots move with their 8" move, and make the Datasmith Advance to keep the 3" <Core> Aura. It's harder when you want to make the Robots charge though, they'll totally outrun him.


As I understood it, swapping protocols requires the datasmith to perform an action. Performing an action from a character disables any aura abilities for the duration. Such a weird rules design.

   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

Ah yes, I see now. Yeah what the hell, why is this an action ? I agree it's complicated for no reason. Means he can't shoot or fight neither I guess ?

I have only played two games of 9th, I never used the action thing.

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Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

It's a non-issue, IMO, since you can take more than one Datasmith.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Getting the Protocol that you want, when you want it, but losing CORE status could be a way to limit buff stacking. Sounds like a tradeoff.
   
Made in us
Perfected Haemonculi Living Sculpture






 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Getting the Protocol that you want, when you want it, but losing CORE status could be a way to limit buff stacking. Sounds like a tradeoff.


Exactly, and if you really need to switch protocols there is the strat for that anyway which still happens faster so 9 times out of 10 and works fine for specialized bots like double fist bots.

OR most players never switch protocols and run around with one blaster, one fist and one flamer. Just remaining in Aegis protocol.

   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





Yet no other unit in the army is forced into a trade off for their basic usage.

It's nonsense any way you swing it, and taking two datasmith isn't a solution it's another work around we've discovered to cover for a badly written rule.

It should just be, switch in command phase, active straight away. done. There are already downsides to each protocol we don't need additional ones from bizarre interactions with complex rules.

They already toned down the shooting and restricted their access to buffs so there is no reason to make this so restricting and complex.

Meanwhile I can increase Ruststalkers save to a 2+ from a 4+ and make them first first from across the map without any downsides.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Does seem needlessly awkward and stupid, for an effect that isn't even all that powerful anyway, on a unit that isn't that powerful either in the new book.

In general, the internal balance in this book looks somewhat suspect. Not that the last one wasn't also.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/24 21:58:30


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

I think they can fix the Datasmith by adding that their Core Aura stays active while performing that specific action or actions in general.
   
Made in fi
Rough Rider with Boomstick





Helsinki, Finland

I'm okay with that rule, i'll just bring another datasmith. And dakkabots are still a powerful unit, just not as broken as they used to be. I'm thinking that this new codex is very well balanced internally, some of the options (melee, for example) are back in play.

https://firstblood84.wordpress.com/
Dark Angels (11000), Astra+AdMech+Assassin (7000), Tyranids (3000), Tau (3000), Legions of Nagash (2500) 
   
Made in us
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 Spreelock wrote:
I'm okay with that rule, i'll just bring another datasmith. And dakkabots are still a powerful unit, just not as broken as they used to be. I'm thinking that this new codex is very well balanced internally, some of the options (melee, for example) are back in play.


How about externally though?

   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Jury is still out on that.

I'd say that they fit with other 9th edition dexes power level, and obviously far far away from DE levels.

I don't have tha data to back to claim though obviously, so it is pure speculation.
   
Made in fi
Rough Rider with Boomstick





Helsinki, Finland

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Spreelock wrote:
I'm okay with that rule, i'll just bring another datasmith. And dakkabots are still a powerful unit, just not as broken as they used to be. I'm thinking that this new codex is very well balanced internally, some of the options (melee, for example) are back in play.


How about externally though?


It's too early to tell, i'll have to wait for the codex so I could make some 2k lists. But in general, they are pretty strong codex, though not quite the level of death guard or drukhari. The intresting bit about the internal balance, is how you make the choises between dogmas (or chapter tactics, space marines are one step ahead for that matter), there's not any no-brainer choises for picking a certain dogma.

https://firstblood84.wordpress.com/
Dark Angels (11000), Astra+AdMech+Assassin (7000), Tyranids (3000), Tau (3000), Legions of Nagash (2500) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 alextroy wrote:
Not that I agree with GW's decision on this, but GW has received constant complaints that "all the options to build my unit to my desired configuration are not in the kit" along with "evil GW is trying to make me buy multiple kits to get my desired unit configuration". They seem to be solving the problem by either upgrading the kit to contain all the options (Battle Sisters kit, soon to be upgraded Cadian Infantry kit) or restricting the unit to what the kit can support (Plague marines/Blightlords, Wyches, Skittari). Really sucks if you are on the downgrade side of the equation, but it does solve the problem going forward for GW


I get it but this is taking it to the dumb degree, anyone buying troop boxes is at least going to get a couple squads yes ? Why couldn't they then make one squad with 2 of the same special weapon ? They'll have 2, from the 2 boxes they'll need, at least if not 3 from the multiple boxes they would need, for troops right ? Who the hell is buying but one box of troops ever so they need to have only the ability to make in the squad what is found in that one box ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Not that I agree with GW's decision on this, but GW has received constant complaints that "all the options to build my unit to my desired configuration are not in the kit" along with "evil GW is trying to make me buy multiple kits to get my desired unit configuration". They seem to be solving the problem by either upgrading the kit to contain all the options (Battle Sisters kit, soon to be upgraded Cadian Infantry kit) or restricting the unit to what the kit can support (Plague marines/Blightlords, Wyches, Skittari). Really sucks if you are on the downgrade side of the equation, but it does solve the problem going forward for GW

You say that, but the Battle Sister kit very conspicuously doesn't include a Multi-melta to force players to buy multiple boxes of Retributors (which are about twice as expensive on a per-model basis).


Keep complaining about that and SoB squads will lose their multimeltas. Alextroy is right; I personally don't mind buying multiple kits* and/or having to convert, but people have been complaining about that for years and this is the result.

(* Especially if they are core unit kits that I would buy multiple of anyway.)


If you have to buy multiple anyways because they are troops this makes this ruling even more stupid as you could field two of the same weapon in the squads already just because you have to buy multiple boxes of the kit. For blight lords I can understand, but the others it makes no sense.

So can I look forward to the 5 man scion squads now needing one plasma and something else in the unit ? They only come with one plasma after all but they function best in small kill squads for certain weapons, like plasma and melta, it's just idiotic. It isn't some wise choice as these units you'll have multiple boxes of because they are troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Not that I agree with GW's decision on this, but GW has received constant complaints that "all the options to build my unit to my desired configuration are not in the kit" along with "evil GW is trying to make me buy multiple kits to get my desired unit configuration". They seem to be solving the problem by either upgrading the kit to contain all the options (Battle Sisters kit, soon to be upgraded Cadian Infantry kit) or restricting the unit to what the kit can support (Plague marines/Blightlords, Wyches, Skittari). Really sucks if you are on the downgrade side of the equation, but it does solve the problem going forward for GW

You say that, but the Battle Sister kit very conspicuously doesn't include a Multi-melta to force players to buy multiple boxes of Retributors (which are about twice as expensive on a per-model basis).


Keep complaining about that and SoB squads will lose their multimeltas. Alextroy is right; I personally don't mind buying multiple kits* and/or having to convert, but people have been complaining about that for years and this is the result.

(* Especially if they are core unit kits that I would buy multiple of anyway.)

That very much reads like 'Don't complain or Daddy GW will punish you'.


Literally buying enough skitarii troop boxes to build a basic battalion detachment gives you enough of the various specials to equip multiples of the same squad.

I can't possibly think of a unit for whom this is any more of a non-issue than Skitarii. And you've also got weird arbitrary crap going on - for example:

-the kit includes a bunch of pistol options and melee weapons - why is there only one dedicated member of the squad that can take those? Why can't one skitarii take a taser goad, one a power sword, and one an arc maul in the same way Plague Marines may take their squad with 4 melee weapons?
-the kit includes 10 models - why is the min size squad 5 at all? and how did they determine that for every five you could only take one weapon for Skitarii, while Wyches who have 5 members of the squad may only take sergeant upgrades and no specials at all?

They're not going with 'you must abide by the kit', theyre just arbitrarily juggling things around so a few people need to change their builds (hopefully buying new kits) to stay compliant with their units, and that sucks ass.


This is what I'm saying exactly, it's complete nonsense and moronic. Why even keep 5 man squad size when the come in boxes of 10 then ? Only one of the models is technically by their build instructions supposed to be a Sgt in the squad and you only have enough upgrades for one set up per Sgt and that is bad bad by the people who support this changes logic. It doesn't make any sense and it feels like it's being done just to jerk people around.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/25 10:16:49


 
   
Made in au
Krazed Killa Kan






Why is the Manipulus no longer available online?
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Tiberius501 wrote:
Why is the Manipulus no longer available online?

Reboxing, probably.

Quite a few of the army releases have been accompanied by models selling out, and reboxing with the new style instruction books (simplified profiles) isn't unlikely.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
There are no such thoughts. Plague marines can now field more special weapons than they could before, just less of the same kind.

There is no more or less to these changes than this:
 alextroy wrote:
GW is slowing and inconsistently moving towards a the box (and possibly associated boxes) contains everything you need to build the unit paradigm.


Except scourges have nowhere near the bits needed, but can still field multiples.

If there is a logic the more consistent one is where they aim to restrict options on troops.

That or they want just troops to be consistent.

Or none of the above.


Actually, it works like this:
1) If they apply the logic, some or all options get cut that aren't in the box. See blight lords, plague marines.
2) If multiple boxes represent a datasheet you will not be able mix the options from those.
3) If they don't apply the logic, you retain whatever you have
4) You will only ever gain new options that are either in the box or not represented by a bit.
5) There is no logic behind what units are hit and which are not, except that troops are more likely to be hit and loyalist marines are less likely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tyran wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

I'd go with "none of the above". If it's just troops, how do you explain Blightlords?

I think you have to consider the purpose of the unit. The primary purpose of troops is holding ground and/or objectives. Terminators may not be Troops, but that is still their primary purpose.

On the other hand if the purpose of a unit is just killing, weapon restrictions just get in the way of that.


So, what about daemon princes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I get it but this is taking it to the dumb degree, anyone buying troop boxes is at least going to get a couple squads yes ? Why couldn't they then make one squad with 2 of the same special weapon ? They'll have 2, from the 2 boxes they'll need, at least if not 3 from the multiple boxes they would need, for troops right ? Who the hell is buying but one box of troops ever so they need to have only the ability to make in the squad what is found in that one box ?

Well, GW's current approach is to have people start with combat patrol games, which would require only one unit of troops.

If you have to buy multiple anyways because they are troops this makes this ruling even more stupid as you could field two of the same weapon in the squads already just because you have to buy multiple boxes of the kit. For blight lords I can understand, but the others it makes no sense.

The thing is, you usually want the same load-out on every squad since there has always been one choice that was above all other. For example, in 8th many player had 3 plague marine units with a plasma champion, two blight launchers and two flails. That would require a total of six boxes to build normally, leaving a pile of 27 extra plague marines to build 3 units of 5. And hilariously, unless you do some converting or have some of the limited models, all your 15 troops models would consist of the same 3 mono-pose guys.
Not saying that I'm a huge fan of this change, but it's not that different from blightlords.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/26 06:42:36


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Here be Adeptus Mechanicus N&R discussion, everything else goes to their own respective topics.

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The FAQ was quietly dropped yesterday

Hope none of you wanted to put Secutarii into a codex transport!
   
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Florence, KY

Already a two page discussion on the FAQ in 40K General Discussions.

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