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Most know that the black carapace is a genetic augmentation. My question is; does it act like a normal carapace? Like the carapaces found on Tyranid's? Or is it just basically black skin that interacts with the armor?
Another question of mine is how much can the carapace take? Say a space marine is attacked in his robes or whatever is worn in "off time". What would it take to penetrate this carapace?
"Strike first, strike hard, no mercy." "We are judged in life by the evil we destroy." "I am going to drastically thin the enemies ranks."
Well remember the carapace isn't the only thing a Space Marine has going for him when he's 'naked' per say. Power Armour doesn't grant any strength/endurance/toughness, it just gives the SM a layer of armour and an additional layer of protection from NBC/Hazardous environments.
Without his power armour, a SM is still far stronger/faster/tougher than even the best un-augmented human being. Wounds close and clot almost instantly, their skeleton is far denser and impact resistant, and they have multiples of several essential organs (heart, lungs, etc).
This being said, I don't think the carapace is an organic carapace (like the Tyranids you mentioned) but rather a man-made structure implanted under their skin. Regardless, I agree with Mr Nobody that it's probably very resilient and it would probably resist any number of knives, bayonets, and possibly even small arms fire. If I had to give a naked SM an armour save, I would probably give him a 6+ just for the carapace and ossification process that makes their bones and ribcage tougher.
The tyranids carapace is said to be made of chitin which is inflexible so not that.
I always thought of it as leathery. Tough but not good enough to protect you that much.
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This means below the dermal layer, not the EPIDERMAL layer (skin).
It's a thin layer of 'dermal' armour, more or less. Maybe enough to stop a small calibre round. If you can penetrate the skin, you have access to the bloodstream - so poisons can still work, it's just the more serious wounds like burns and bone breakage that take more effort.
Look at either Deathwatch (rpg) OR Inquisitor for comparisons with SM and anyone else.
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DogOfWar wrote:Power Armour doesn't grant any strength/endurance/toughness, it just gives the SM a layer of armour and an additional layer of protection from NBC/Hazardous environments.
Actually Power armor does increase a space marine's strength. See the Death Watch Space Marine game
This means below the dermal layer, not the EPIDERMAL layer (skin).
It's a thin layer of 'dermal' armour, more or less. Maybe enough to stop a small calibre round. If you can penetrate the skin, you have access to the bloodstream - so poisons can still work, it's just the more serious wounds like burns and bone breakage that take more effort.
Look at either Deathwatch (rpg) OR Inquisitor for comparisons with SM and anyone else.
Well the term 'skin' collectively refers to both the dermis and the epidermis. While it would be possible to have a full body transdermal implant if you found a permeable enough, non-rejective substance (to avoid restricting blood flow, temperature regulation, sweating, etc), most people would assume that an implant like the black carapace would have to be subdermal. Regardless, I wager it's not a fun procedure, to say the least.
DoW
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NagothDaCleaver wrote:Actually Power armor does increase a space marine's strength. See the Death Watch Space Marine game
I'll have to remember where I read it but I was pretty sure that to avoid having too massive of a power supply, power armour granted an almost negligible bonus to strength because it was counteracted by the weight of the armour itself.
Then again, this could only be for SoB power armour and the like. After all, they're still only S3.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/11 03:50:57
DogOfWar wrote:Power Armour doesn't grant any strength/endurance/toughness
Yes, it does.
Sororitas power armor also grants a bonus, in fact, it grants the exact same bonus as Space Marine armor (the difference is that Sororitas are not unnaturally strong to begin with).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/11 03:57:26
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Phase 19 – Black Carapace. This is the last and the most distinctive implant. It looks like a film of black plastic when it's growing in the tanks. This is removed from its culture-solution and cut into sheets which are implanted directly beneath the skin of the Marine's torso. Within a few hours the tissue expands, hardens on the outside, and sends invasive neural bundles deep inside the Marine. After several months the carapace will have fully matured and the recipient is then fitted with neural sensors and transfusion points cut into the hardened carapace. These artificial 'plug-in' points mesh with features integral to the powered armour, such as the monitoring, medicinal and maintenance units. Without the benefit of a black carapace, a Space Marine's armour is relatively useless.
So really it seems to be a second skin that allows the relevant interface between Marine and armour. I guess that the carapace hardens so that the sensors don't slosh about and remain in place.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/04/11 08:59:51
DogOfWar wrote:
I'll have to remember where I read it but I was pretty sure that to avoid having too massive of a power supply, power armour granted an almost negligible bonus to strength because it was counteracted by the weight of the armour itself.
Power armor does give a substantial increase in strength to the wearer. Of course, the servo-muscles of a PA are not as powerful as those of a termy suit, but they are still important.
For instance, in the novel Healsreach, it is mentioned several times how the already formidable strength of a SM is increased by its power armor, allowing the SM to move faster and to give more powerful blows than a battle brother without any armor.
I remember reading a passage in this novel where a Black Templar initiate fighting orks is hit by some kind of ork-made EMP weapon that shuts down his armor. In fact, it is only without the servo-muscles of his armor that this SM started to suffer from the considerable weight of his armor, allowing the orks to surround him and bring him down.
"How many more worlds do we sacrifice? How many more millions or billions do we betray before we turn and fight?" - attributed to Captain Leoten Semper of Battlefleet Gothic - Gothic War, the evacuation of Belatis.
If commanding a Titan is a measure of true power, then commanding a warship is like having one foot on the Golden Throne - Navy saying.
This means below the dermal layer, not the EPIDERMAL layer (skin).
It's a thin layer of 'dermal' armour, more or less. Maybe enough to stop a small calibre round. If you can penetrate the skin, you have access to the bloodstream - so poisons can still work, it's just the more serious wounds like burns and bone breakage that take more effort.
Look at either Deathwatch (rpg) OR Inquisitor for comparisons with SM and anyone else.
For some reason I always pictured it to grow out of them and actually cover their skin. (not really sure why now that I think about it).
"Strike first, strike hard, no mercy." "We are judged in life by the evil we destroy." "I am going to drastically thin the enemies ranks."
DogOfWar wrote:
I'll have to remember where I read it but I was pretty sure that to avoid having too massive of a power supply, power armour granted an almost negligible bonus to strength because it was counteracted by the weight of the armour itself.
Power armor does give a substantial increase in strength to the wearer. Of course, the servo-muscles of a PA are not as powerful as those of a termy suit, but they are still important.
For instance, in the novel Healsreach, it is mentioned several times how the already formidable strength of a SM is increased by its power armor, allowing the SM to move faster and to give more powerful blows than a battle brother without any armor.
I remember reading a passage in this novel where a Black Templar initiate fighting orks is hit by some kind of ork-made EMP weapon that shuts down his armor. In fact, it is only without the servo-muscles of his armor that this SM started to suffer from the considerable weight of his armor, allowing the orks to surround him and bring him down.
As far as the shutting down of the armour is concerned, that's exactly what I said. The weight of the armour is counteracted by the boost in strength, but grants only a very slight increase beyond that.
Something of note: Scouts, Marines, and Terminators are all S4/I4 regardless of the Carapace, Power Armour and Terminator Armour they wear (respectively). Also, Power Armoured SoB/Inquisitors/Acolytes/Henchmen are S3.
Even if Power Armour does grant the wearer a bonus to strength, it cannot be anywhere near 'substantial' or it would be reflected in their stats, and it is much more likely to be minimal as most of the power is devoted to moving the heavy armour and not draining the power supply.
This being said, on an individual basis, the fibre-bundles would probably increase the compressive force of certain body parts. Fingers, for instance, are probably increased quite a bit, as would the ability to crush something under food (due mostly to added weight). However, any motion that would require moving large muscle groups or body parts would be counteracted by the weight immediately. An SoB would have a helluva handshake, but she wouldn't be able to hurl an opponent bodily across the room just because she's wearing Power Armour.
Now I'm not saying Power Armour doesn't augment combat abilities, since having greater mass means several things in hand to hand. You would be harder to knock down, you would hit harder (added weight behind each blow, regardless of weapon wielded), and momentum and subsequent impact from a charge would be significantly increased.
Basically, Power Armour is not the Master Chief's suit. If you or I put on a suit, we would be pretty damn tough, but it's not like we could suddenly start tossing cars around.
40k game stats are... incredibly simplified; basically they are anywhere within a 1/100th of their number.
Space marines are probably mid 400's, termies; high 400's; and Gunnery Sgt Harker low 400's.
Most guardsmen are probably mid 300's; with Catachans being generally around 375 somewhere, and Eldar being equivalent to catachans(They are not overly weak, and are said to be stronger than most normal humans); tau would of course be low 300's probably not getting any higher than 325-330.
The old Inquisitor game flat out stated all of this.
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Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
Kommissar Kel wrote:40k game stats are... incredibly simplified; basically they are anywhere within a 1/100th of their number.
Space marines are probably mid 400's, termies; high 400's; and Gunnery Sgt Harker low 400's.
Most guardsmen are probably mid 300's; with Catachans being generally around 375 somewhere, and Eldar being equivalent to catachans(They are not overly weak, and are said to be stronger than most normal humans); tau would of course be low 300's probably not getting any higher than 325-330.
The old Inquisitor game flat out stated all of this.
Well then we can safely say that Power Armour can't grant more than 30-40 points of strength on the 1000 scale or guardsmen equipping it would then become S4.
Either way, I still stand my my argument. Power Armour doesn't make you superhuman. It grants many benefits (not to mention looking awesome) but superhuman strength/endurance/speed are not part of the package.
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xXSir MontyXx wrote:Most know that the black carapace is a genetic augmentation.
It is not a genetic augment, as it not produced by altering the space marine's genetic code, it is an implant.
DogOfWar wrote:
Kommissar Kel wrote:40k game stats are... incredibly simplified; basically they are anywhere within a 1/100th of their number.
Space marines are probably mid 400's, termies; high 400's; and Gunnery Sgt Harker low 400's.
Most guardsmen are probably mid 300's; with Catachans being generally around 375 somewhere, and Eldar being equivalent to catachans(They are not overly weak, and are said to be stronger than most normal humans); tau would of course be low 300's probably not getting any higher than 325-330.
The old Inquisitor game flat out stated all of this.
Well then we can safely say that Power Armour can't grant more than 30-40 points of strength on the 1000 scale or guardsmen equipping it would then become S4.
Either way, I still stand my my argument. Power Armour doesn't make you superhuman. It grants many benefits (not to mention looking awesome) but superhuman strength/endurance/speed are not part of the package.
DoW
Ignoring fluff evidence, not being able to give fluff evidence and then using in-game stats in a fluff discusion AWESOME.
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its safe to say that relictors are the greatest army a man , nay human can own.
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BluntmanDC wrote:Ignoring fluff evidence, not being able to give fluff evidence and then using in-game stats in a fluff discusion AWESOME.
Fair enough, then show me a quote from fluff that specifically says it 'significantly' increases the strength of the user such that it overcomes the additional weight of the armour itself and provides greatly increased strength.
Yes the fluff and the rules are different, but they run along the same tracks occasionally and I believe this is one of those cases.
If power armour increased toughness, speed, or strength to the superhuman levels people are describing, then there would be no need for Space Marines. I honestly think you're all getting carried away with other genres that DO have super-suits (Halo, Crysis, GI-Joe, etc). It's a suit of armour that is powered to the point of maintaining, if possibly slightly increasing, the abilities of the user, nothing more.
DoW
Automatically Appended Next Post: For argument's sake:
"Whilst Power Armour is most commonly associated with the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, the Sisters of Battle and many Inquisitors also use powered armour of one sort or another. Typically, however, these armours may not contain the same strength-enhancing properties or life-support functions of Space Marine Power Armour, nor do they always provide the same level of protection."
Though, to be fair, that's from Warhammer 40k Wiki... not the best source in the world but at least it's not *gasp* rules! Egads!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/11 23:40:11
York/London(for weekends) oh for the glory of the british rail industry
DogOfWar wrote:For argument's sake:
"Whilst Power Armour is most commonly associated with the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, the Sisters of Battle and many Inquisitors also use powered armour of one sort or another. Typically, however, these armours may not contain the same strength-enhancing properties or life-support functions of Space Marine Power Armour, nor do they always provide the same level of protection."
Though, to be fair, that's from Warhammer 40k Wiki... not the best source in the world but at least it's not *gasp* rules! Egads!
So the quote you gave tells us that space marine power armour has 'strenght-enhancing properties'. Are you trying to dispprove your own arguement?
ps never watched G.I.Joe or crysis
Relictors: 1500pts
its safe to say that relictors are the greatest army a man , nay human can own.
I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf. - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
DoW wrote:I'll have to remember where I read it but I was pretty sure that to avoid having too massive of a power supply, power armour granted an almost negligible bonus to strength because it was counteracted by the weight of the armour itself.
Then again, this could only be for SoB power armour and the like. After all, they're still only S3.
"Whilst Power Armour is most commonly associated with the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, the Sisters of Battle and many Inquisitors also use powered armour of one sort or another. Typically, however, these armours may not contain the same strength-enhancing properties or life-support functions of Space Marine Power Armour, nor do they always provide the same level of protection."
I honestly don't see the contradiction, but I've been wrong before so if you could point it out I'd appreciate it.
In the book Age of Darkness there is a short storyForgotten sons that has an unarmored Salamander hand to hand with a armored Iron Warrior. It states "But with his power armoured battle-plate, the Iron Warrior was stronger"
In Dark Heresy, Power Armor grants the user +20 to their effective Strength, as well as other bonuses depending on the specific variant of PA a character is wearing. Light Power Armor, which the SoB wear, does not.
The SM, additionally, do not take the same penalties as non-SM do in PA. They move as fast as they otherwise would, negate the +20 to hit a "hulking" target they would otherwise have (the SM being said hulking creature), and take no penalty to Dodge/Parry tests.
PA does apply penalties to stealth-based skills, which is why Scout SMs wear carapace.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Sororitas power armor isn't light power armor. It has a strength enhancement, Psienesis.
DogOfWar wrote:I honestly don't see the contradiction, but I've been wrong before so if you could point it out I'd appreciate it.
The contradiction is more that the Sisters fluff says that Sisters of Battle armor DOES provide the same level of protection (this is in C:WH) and has strength enhancement, though what level the latter is is debatable.
In Dark Heresy, power armor provides a +20 to strength, both Astartes and human power armor. The overly long explanation is:
Spoiler:
The difference is that an Astartes has Unnatural strength, so this is applied after the Astartes effectively doubles their strength before power armor. So perhaps an Astartes has, in-game, fourty strength and then twenty from power armor. A human with these stats would have a +6 bonus, meanwhile an Astartes would have +10. So a human would do 6+1d10+3 damage with a melee weapon (depending on the weapon of course), averaging around 15-16 damage wounds to an unarmored enemy, while an Astartes would do 10+1d10+3 damage with a melee weapon, averaging around 19-20 wounds to an unarmored enemy. The average human starts off with around 12 wounds, and the maximum any human (not Astartes) can have is 25, and toughness bonus (which Astartes again double just like strength bonus) reduces damage directly along with armor. So a particularly strong Astartes. one with 60-- or more-- strength, can pretty much kill even the toughest unarmored human in a single blow.
Mind you, Sororitas power armor in Dark Heresy is a bit weird. Sororitas get it for free in Blood of Martyrs, which is a Dark Heresy supplement. In Dark Heresy, power armor is ludicrously overpowered and ludicrously expensive (which, to be fair, is probably accurate). To balance out them getting it for free, the strength bonus is reduced to +10, but to help compensate, the helmet also gives +5 to BS and heavy weapons are always considered braced.
It's a weird compromise between fluff and balance, but it works at least, making Sororitas heavy weapons deadly accurate in their power armor even on the move-- moreso than when wielded by Astartes, in fact, given the rules of Deathwatch. Sisters are, on average, far better shots than Astartes as a result, and their heavy weapons teams are more effective as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/13 02:28:02
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Actually the point about the Heavy Weapons is a good one. No Guardsman (save for Try Again Bragg or Harker, etc) is toting a Heavy Bolter or Multi-Melta by themselves, yet Sisters run around with them quite happily. That's a pretty strong argument in favor, despite several sources saying conflicting things.
Also, Faith and Fire never mentions Sororitas Power Armour providing a particular bonus to strength although they do manage to pry an iron grating from its bolting (albeit with a LOT of effort).
See now I'm not so sure. I still stand by the argument that it doesn't make you able to lift cars, but maybe it would let you win pretty much any arm-wrestling match...
Well, think about it this way. Using Dark Heresy's system, a Sororitas is stronger than the average human with similar strength training.
A Sororitas who dedicated herself to training her strength (say, a Celestian dedicted to close combat) would be stronger in her power armor than someone with equivalent strength (say, a brutish thug from an underhive). She would also have more endurance in contests of strength as well, as the power pack used by Sororitas is equal to that used by Astartes; unless it is damaged in battle, it effectively lasts forever.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
DogOfWar wrote:Actually the point about the Heavy Weapons is a good one. No Guardsman (save for Try Again Bragg or Harker, etc) is toting a Heavy Bolter or Multi-Melta by themselves, yet Sisters run around with them quite happily. That's a pretty strong argument in favor, despite several sources saying conflicting things.
Used to be that sort of thing was justified by the use of suspensors.
As far as everything else goes, it always seemed to me that power armor provides a moderate strength boost, perhaps 15 to 20 percent; but that its main value lay in being superb protection without hindering mobility. The black carapace is the interface that lets marines use the armor to its greatest effect in that respect.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/13 04:10:26
The Immortal God Emperor (peace be upon him) wrote: Evidently we must strive to be the fierce redeemer of man, yet what shall redeem us?
But do we actually know what the black carapace looks like?
I know it's supposed to be some kind of leathery black sheets or something like that, but which parts of the body does it cover?
And if it's an implant, how is it implanted into the SM body. Do they remove large chunks of the SM's skin, stick the black carapace to his muscles and bones, and then put all the skin back together? The SM must look like a patchwork then.
"How many more worlds do we sacrifice? How many more millions or billions do we betray before we turn and fight?" - attributed to Captain Leoten Semper of Battlefleet Gothic - Gothic War, the evacuation of Belatis.
If commanding a Titan is a measure of true power, then commanding a warship is like having one foot on the Golden Throne - Navy saying.
Laodamia wrote:
And if it's an implant, how is it implanted into the SM body. Do they remove large chunks of the SM's skin, stick the black carapace to his muscles and bones, and then put all the skin back together? The SM must look like a patchwork then.
WD 247 Rites of Initiation
It looks like a film of black plastic when it's growing in the tanks. This is removed from its culture-solution and cut into sheets which are implanted directly beneath the skin of the Marine's torso. Within a few hours the tissue expands, hardens on the outside, and sends invasive neural bundles deep inside the Marine.
Looking like a Raggydoll is the least of a Space marines worries. If they wanted to be pretty boys then joining one of the most ferocious military organisations shouldn't be for them, maybe a flower seller or a handbag designer
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/04/14 10:20:11
It basically looks like a black, shell-like material underneath the skin of the SM's torso. You would have to peel the skin off the guy to see most of it, though.
It's also rather bullet-proof, at least insofar as standard laspistols and autopistols and such are concerned. This on top of the fact that the SM's ribcage is a fused, solid plate of armor-woven bone or some such thing.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that the build of SMs is partially responsible for the creation of the Vindicare Assassins and their tank-killer rifles...
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