Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all.

As in the subj.:

HQ - BJORN The Fell-Handed - HF - Plasma Cannon. 270
HQ - Rune Priest - Living Lightning - Storm Caller - Chooser of the Slain. 110
EL - Dreadnought - Plasma Cannon - HF on DCCW. 125
EL - Dreadnought - Plasma Cannon - HF on DCCW. 125
EL - Dreadnought - Plasma Cannon - HF on DCCW. 125
TR - 5x Grey hunters - Meltagun - Mark of the Wulfen - LAS/PLAS Razorback. 170
TR - 5x Grey hunters - Meltagun - Mark of the Wulfen - LAS/PLAS Razorback. 170
TR - 5x Grey hunters - Flamer - LAS/PLAS Razorback. 150
TR - 5x Grey hunters - Flamer - Rhino. 110 (Rune Priest unit)
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML - LAS/PLAS Razorback. 215
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML - LAS/PLAS Razorback. 215
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML - LAS/PLAS Razorback. 215
Tot. 2000

---------------------------------------------------------
- 4x Plasma Cannons
- 4x Heavy Flamers
- 2x Flamers
- 2x Meltaguns
- 6x Lascannons / 6x TL Plasmaguns
- 15x missiles
---------------------------------------------------------

Bjorn for a "around 75%" of chances to start first.
MLs, Plasma Cannons and Lasers for the first 2 turn of 36"/48" goodness.
TL Plasmaguns, Heavy Flamers, DCCWs, Meltaguns and Flamers if someone will consider to come a litte too close.., eventually..

I'm just uncertain about the Rhino unit.

Of course is for well protect the onyl Rune priest available and in the same time bring another vehicle. Originally I had just another GH+flamer+LAS/PLAS unit with the Priest walking alone hidden behind the adamantium walls.

in the original setup however I found particulary uneasy move ahead the psionic. So why the Rhino.
In fact, vs some particular adversary, have a 24" anti-psionic protection advancing in my 3d/4th turn is really necessary. Sometimes.

I've been even playing a couple of TL Assault Cannons on 2 Razorbacks but It seems I'm not particulary lucky with rending shoots and I prefer the LAS/PLAS combo actually. Unfortunately.

I'm not even particulary satisfied by the 2 Mark of the Wulfen. In fact I avoid CC as much as I can but what to do with these 30 points? Eventually take 2 naked Grey Hunter to add at the Priest unit? Just as ablative wounds?

By the way, C&C?

I like it...

am putting together a similar list... very similar...

I am just focussing MORE on long/medium range firepower...

have you play tested this yet?

Yes, allready played it in 7 tournaments, 2 of them at 1850 by dropping 1 flamer GH troop.

However, I tested it slightly different.

As mentioned with 2x TL Assault Cannons on 2 Razorbacks+melta inside and the Priest walking all alone on the vehicles shade.

I've benn pretty happy with but vs Daemons, other SW and some walking eldar/Eldarzilla setups I've really noticed the need of a mobile Rune Priest.

One thing I've never tried is Wolftooth Necklaces on Dreadnoughts but, agains as allready mentioned, the CC is something to avoid at all costs.

I've lost some of the first games just by raging ahead vs my opponents due to different habits (alternatively I play Nids) but finally I've found absolutely effective castle in one side corner.

In fact I found a little too dangerous rush ahead with these famous TL Assault Cannons Razobacks just to shoot. What they can throw down (AV 11/12/13) can be nuked down enough easily with lasers or even missiles.

Everything turn around Bjorn.
His SUPER bonus on determining the first to play is something that will change your life.

You'll just have to be really carefull if playing vs others heavy shooty lists. In this case doesn't risk a free targets deployment, never.
For this reason, if you're planning to use Typhoons speeders by dropping some Razorback alwais remember to initially park some Razorback to cover the Long Fangs.

Don't even be to shy on reserving units.

In example, all of my Flamer GH start games everytime in reserves, they meet their Razorback later in the game, most of times exactly when their preferred target are close enough to be burned a little.

So here my doubths:
- Does the 2 MotW pts would be better converted in Wolftooth Necklaces for the Elite Dradnoughts? Even if CC would be alwais the last resource?

- Does the Priest must walk all alone "freeing" one other unit of GH to take the 7th LAS/TL PLAS Razorback? Letting the unit eventually survive one turn more because not hunted down alltogether with the IC?

here is my version of the list...

tell me how you think it will play...

HQ:

Bjorn w/ Plas cannon
Rune Priest w/ Chooser, melta bombs LL & Storm caller)
Ven Dread w/ Plas cannon & Saga of Majesty

Elite:

Dread w/ 2 x TL auto cannons

Troops:

1 x 7 GH w/ Flamer, Motw, Standard in Rhino (RP goes in here)
2 x 5 GH w/ Plasma in Razerback w/ Laz/TL plas
2 x 5 GH w/ Melta in Razerback w/ Laz/TL plas

Heavy:

2 x 5 LF w/ 4 ML in razerback w/ TL lass cannon

how do you think it will match up?

I understand the meaning of the Venerable Dreadnought. A sort of backup of Bjorn, something else giving Morale rerolls but, in my experience, this is not a kind of spread-in-a-line shooty list.

I'm really more confortable castleling in a corner.
Not only you will profit of Bjorn rerolls for all the Long fangs and Grey Hunter but you will be able to build up a "zone of death" easily.

I don't like rilfe dreads with this list.
Not that the Plasma Cannons are particulary better than Autocannons but 1) you have enough missiles to manage transports and light armors, 2) using a Plasmacannon you keep available the DCCW. Something really important in a list where we don't have a lot of CC specialists. Better if equipped with am Heavy Flamer.

I like your 5 troops setup but I consider it a little redundant. Honestly is something I've never tryed yet but in the same time is something I've never felt necessary. Until now..

Besides, I don't particulary like Plasmaguns on 5x men troops. You will risk to help your adversary making you take tests. Meltaguns are not only necessaries in this list but, to me, the nowadays must have.
I'm not saying that Plasmaguns are a poor choice, I love it and I often these weapon for larger units.

Don't you feel the 4x missiles Long Fangs units a little shame when with just 25 pts more you can have the completed setup?
They will be good however, still the cheaper Devastators in the power armoured Imperium.

Finally I think that our setup aren't particulary different but I see some "hole" that some usual list will fill of casualties.

Alpha strike units, if really strong even in multiple assaults, can tear apart our poor Grey Hunters. Without Dreadnought tarpitting these units will be really hard keeping enough troops alive.

In a friedly tournament, this weekend, I will try this lsit.

A little bit changed and more varied on weapons choices:

HQ - BJORN The Fell-Handed - HF - Plasma Cannon. 270
HQ - Rune Priest - Living Lightning - Storm Caller. 100
EL - Dreadnought - Plasma Cannon - HF on DCCW. 125
EL - Dreadnought - Plasma Cannon - HF on DCCW. 125
EL - Dreadnought - Plasma Cannon - HF on DCCW. 125
TR - 5x Grey hunters - Meltagun - Rhino. 115 (Rune Priest unit)
TR - 5x Grey hunters - Meltagun - LAS/PLAS Razorback. 155
TR - 5x Grey hunters - Meltagun - LAS/PLAS Razorback. 155
FA - Land Speeder - HF - MM. 70
FA - Land Speeder - HF - MM. 70
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 2x ML - 3x Lascannons - LAS/PLAS Razorback. 260
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML - LAS/PLAS Razorback. 215
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML - LAS/PLAS Razorback. 215
Tot. 2000
---------------------------------------------------------
- 4x Plasma Cannons
- 6x Heavy Flamers
- 3x Meltaguns
- 2x Multi-meltas
- 3x Lascannons
- 5x Lascannons / 5x TL Plasmaguns
- 12x missiles


Land Speeders become easily free kill points, I know, but 'til they will be available will help vs the big things like Land Radiers etc.

Obviously I will flat-out them from cover to cover hunting the AV14.

Dropping 1 troop I've even gained 3 more lasers. Alwais usefulls.

I am really getting interested in this type of list... and the tactics involved...

I agree on the castling and not the strung out gun line... but for me the ven dread/ bjorn is there to keep the CC away from all shooty units... having 4 tarpits in your army is too much IMHO... also if they are in cc then they are not shooting!

would rather use a unit of GH to block... this way they will lose combat.. run/ reform (hopefully) and then I am free to carry on shooting the opponent... the flamers vs storm bolter question... for me I if I am using a flamer I am in or about to be in CC... which is too late for this list... at least the Stormbolter has about the same range as the the rest of the army so will be more efective more of the time...

I do agree on the melta vs plas question and will change it...

when are you playing your list?

I will play it this sunday in 3 games friendly tournament.

Actually I agree about your Ven+Bjorn setup, in theory this work most of times but in reality I alwais found Venerable Dreads too much pricy for what their pts will bring back.

I so prefer another moving plasma-shooting platform.

In the same way I agree about yours HF/SB reflections but in my experience I found particulary important having these HF when facing Orks mobs or gaunts/gants large units. These units, Orks in particular can seriously damage us, will alwais disturb our walkers and burn the half away just before the CC had alwais helped me.

I know that these 30 pts could be well invested in Wolftooth Necklaces for the Dreadnoughts but as underlined many times when finally something will close enough to assault range this wouldn't change a lot of things. I prefer playing by anticipation building up this famous zone of death where, if someone put a foot it, I will nuke him completly down or at least cut off the half of his strenght in number.
Originally I was even using JATWW as PF/PK killer but I found it as not exactly fitting with all the rest of the army.

I'm still undecided on Storm Caller so, eventually, I will take again this power.

The list is still in endless evolution and yesterday I was thinking at something like this:

HQ - BJORN The Fell-Handed - HF - Plasma Cannon. 270
HQ - Rune Priest - Living Lightning - Storm Caller. 100
EL - Dreadnought - Plasma Cannon - HF on DCCW. 125
EL - Dreadnought - Plasma Cannon - HF on DCCW. 125
EL - Dreadnought - Plasma Cannon - HF on DCCW. 125
TR - 5x Grey hunters - Meltagun - Meltabombs - Rhino. 120 (Rune Priest unit)
TR - 5x Grey hunters - Meltagun - Lascannon/TL Plasmagun Razorback. 155
TR - 5x Grey hunters - Meltagun - Lascannon/TL Plasmagun Razorback. 155
FA - Land Speeder - MM. 60
FA - Land Speeder - MM. 60
FA - Land Speeder - MM. 60
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML - Lascannon/TL Plasmagun Razorback. 215
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML - Lascannon/TL Plasmagun Razorback. 215
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML - Lascannon/TL Plasmagun Razorback. 215
Tot. 2000

Less Lasers but more Melta power. If I'll find someone to lend me a speeder I will try this list sunday.

I really want to get a bat rep on it...

any idea what armies you will be facing?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
ok...

a bit of adjustment and I have come up with this list...

I feel it is a bit more survivable has almost as much hitting power but will hang in longer... tell me what you think...

HQ:

Bjorn w/ Plas cannon
Rune Priest w/ chooser & meltabombs (LL & storm caller)

Elites:

2 x Dread w/ plas cannon & HF


Troops:

2 x 5 GH w/ Melta + WG w/ combi melta & PF in las/plas razerback
1 x 7 GH w/ Motw, melta & standard in Rhino (Rune priest in this unit)

Fast:

3 x 1 Landspeeder w/ MM & HF

Heavy:

3 x 6 LF w/ 5 ML in las/plas razerbacks

2000pts

now still not convinced of a rifle dread vs a plas dread...
also am thinking maybe to add more GH and drop some LF... would like to know how maneuverable you find 3 packs of LF and how survivable only 3 troop choices are at 2000pts...

firepower:

1 x Living lightning
3 x plasma cannon
6 x meltaguns (3 are combi weps)
3 x multi meltas
5 x las cannon / 5 x TL plasma gun
15 x Frag/krak missiles
6 x Heavy flamers

I would like it if someone could mathammer the rifle dread vs plas cannon issue...

I'm not a very math lover but I can anticipate you that 1 double TL Autocannons will work statistically better than 1 Plasma Cannon. Just the deviation issues drop the second option low in the effectiveness chart.

The problem, for me at least, is that our dreads need CC weapons.

In my order of priorities, after the empty "Long Fangs" razorbacks, the first targets will be the dreads. Only at the end my enemy will be able to touch the Grey Hunters.

So, if we're talking about taking a 1x TL Autocannon + HF on DCCW I prefer the Plasma Cannon setup.

Basically for the template + blast weapons kind.

I don't think these kind of lists really needs autocannons.
we allready have Living Lightnin, something about 12/15 missiles.. it will be largely enough for light armors, Rhino et similar.
We also have Lasers for these issues.

What we really need is something that will work well in sinergy with the other weapons. If the missiles will open up a rhino we will be able to shoot down the poor Plague marines with some ST7 VP2 rain of fire before they will enter in 24" range of action. And this is an example with one nice basic infantry unit. Consider, DC marines, Terminators of any sort, Necron Destroyers, Tau Crisis, Mega armor Orks.. etc etc etc..

Obviously, we don't need to underline it again, the blast will hugely help vs big mobs or big units of gaunts and similar.

The range is very good preventing full units to enter in the death-zone (very good vs MC also) and, occasionally, will even help vs light vehicles. If comin' too close (someone said Khorne rhinos?).

I'm sure that some other weapon will be eventually one exchangeable variant to the Plasma cannon, something like the Assault Cannon in example but the shorter range doesn't shine in my evaluation.

Talking about Long Fangs.. why move them?
I only put them in their Razorbacks vs long ranged shooty army list for 2 reasons.
First, eventually, to start in cover behind buildings. Luckily not in LOS.
Second, for DOW roll. Where obviously we will need to bring them in the right place as fastly as possible.

Vs averagely shooting armies I don't even mind to embarke them and I just walk them where wanted if in DOW deployments.

Besides, excuse me for the absolutism, building up a shooty SW list at 2000 points without profiting by the best effectiveness/price rapport unit in the game would mean perpetrate the second bbigger Heresy of the 40k history ;D

yeah I have a 2500 similar list

HEADQUARTERS

Rune priest
LL Jotw pistol
100

Rune priest
LL MH bolter
100

Rune priest
LL MH MB
105

bjorn
PC
270

ELITES

dreadnought
PC HF
wolftooth necklace
135

dreadnought
PC HF
wolftooth necklace
135

wolfguard
x3 CM
69

TROOPS

5 GH
MG rhino
138

5 GH
MG rhino MOTW
135

5 GH
MG rhino
138

10 GH
rhino x2 PG Motw
WS
230

10 GH
rhino x2 PG Motw
WS PW
230

FAST ATTACK

typhoon
missile launcher
HB
90

typhoon
missile launcher
HB
90

typhoon
missile launcher
HB
90

HEAVY SUPPORT

Long Fangs(x6) - x3 Missile Launchers
x2 LC
170 Points

Long Fangs(x6) - x3 Missile Launchers
x2 LC
170 Points

Long Fangs(x6) - x3 Missile Launchers
x2 LC
170 Points

2497

what do you think? man we could open a private discussion

Hi Rovian.

Your 'ARD BOYS list introduce a huge variation of theme in this list examination.

Focusing on lower pts levels like the 2k, with some retouch, I of course consider your list viable.
The only things I don't particulary like are the Typhoons speeders.

I love them and they're a foundamental part of some of my other lists with other codexs. I also understand why you choosed them trying to compensate the lower number of your Long Fangs missiles but due to their necessary positioning close to you table edge they risk to became one easy kill point for your opponent.

In fact, in kill points games they will seriously risk to let you start allready at -3 in the "killed units" count.

For these reasons I prefer the sacrificable only MM speeders (alternatively the MM+HF) because in general they will be used with more precautions, jumping from cover to cover, when possible out of LOS, until in target range.
This is particulary true in kill games where they will eventually even come in game by deep strike, avoiding the more I can to make 3 gifts to my opponent.

Besides, your Rhino spam is actually very effective in 18"/12" range (the average between the meltaguns and plasmaguns full effectiveness).
A very dangerous range of action imho, particulary in very high pts levels where almost the 80% of codexes available can build up solid and effective gun lines helped by very hard hitting CC deathstars.

This will obviously mean that your (our) fragile vehicles will be conveniently opened up when some CC specialist will be in assault range, producing a terrible damage to your list.

Another reflection that come in my mind is that you're investing a huge quantity of pts in the troops slots.
Of course having 4/5 troops allow backups for more errors but in the same time reduce noticeably your effectiveness with all the others possibilities offered by the codex.

One last thing, with your list you'll gonna be forced to rush ahead really fast to produce some important damage.
In my point of view you're trying an aggressive play with the less aggressive units available in the codex.

Grey Hunter, Rune Priests, Long Fangs and Typhoons are with no doubts defensive units. Even Bjorn is the epitome of a defensive profile.

In high levels, for a very aggressive but still effective play style with Wolves I kindly advice you Thunderwolves, Thunderwolves, a mix of Long Fangs/Rifle Dreadnoughts/Typhoons and again Thunderwolves.

LOL at Toban...

yeah I do agree on the heresy of dropping LF issue!!!

ok you have sold me on the PC vs auto cannon issue...

what do you think of adding the Wolf Guard into the GH packs vs the 3rd PC dread?

@ Varl Sigmund:

It's something I considered long time before take a decision.

What Wolf Guards add to Grey Hunters are basically the 3x Attacks PF/FB, 4 in charge, the second special weapon in fact, can be taken FOR FREE with a complete unit of ten men.

This list for sure need some CC help but not in Razorbacks.

I considered WG as an option to add ablative wounds on Long Fangs and in the same time add a little punch to the Rhino GH unit but this doesn't gonna add a lot to the list.

Besides will be fastly more pricy than the Dreadnought and this will means a total recalculation on the whole list.

By my experience I haven't felt yet the need of a PF in my HQ unit.
Until now obviously.

Varl Sigmund wrote:here is my version of the list...
HQ:

Bjorn w/ Plas cannon
Rune Priest w/ Chooser, melta bombs LL & Storm caller)
Ven Dread w/ Plas cannon & Saga of Majesty

That's a typo right? I thought we lost the ability to take a Dreadnought (other than Bjorn) as an HQ. If not, awesome as I could use more Lone Wolves...

No, obviously is an Elite choice.

Unfortunately