Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, So as with most things with this damn game i think i know most everything and while lurking through old forums i saw some people post some stuff and no one argued with them. People just seemed to agree with it. The forum in question was about CSM Dreadnoughts and Fire Frenzy but we won't even get into that.

The thing that was stated that confused the hell out of me was this.

"Units may infiltrate within 12" of a vehicle, in the open, as long as it can't point any of it's weapons at them."

Who say's this is true? Is this true? So i can infiltrate my chosen 3 inches behind a land raider with meltaguns and blast the hell out of it. I can use the opponents own vehicles to give my guys cover so i can be at 12 inches of their other units. That is so insane.

I mean, i'm not going to argue with it. I just think it seems insane.

P.S.
I'm going to a tourny saturday. I want to run some dreadnoughts in CSM, crazy i know, i way i read Fire Frenzy is how the last thread went. Is it rude for me to bring a typed up reasoning behind the ruling and present it to the judge? I won't argue his ruling. I just want to bring my side of the argument. I don't want to start a huge argument about fire frenzy. Just want to know if that's a dick move on my part.

LOS for vehicles is fvrom the weapon mount. So for some vehicles you may be able to get 12" away from them without them being able to see you.

The Fire Frenzy argument is Off Topic for this thread.

You've misunderstood the Infiltrate rules. Remember that to infiiltrate 12.00001" away (not 12" away; the rulebook specifies MORE than 12"), you have to be completely out of LOS of ANY enemy unit. If ANY enemy unit can draw LOS to the Infiltrators, they have to be placed at least 18.00001" away from any enemy unit.

Yes, LOS for Dreadnoughts (as with all vehicles) is determined based on the fire arcs of their weapon. This one does see a bit of debate, though, so it's absolutely worth bringing up with the TO ahead of time.

I don't think it's in any way a dick move to give the TO a detailed, written argument. However I don't think the day of the event is the time to do it. Talk to him beforehand and email it to him so he has time to actually read it and think about it. The day of the event is always a time crunch; the TO has a bunch of stuff on his hands, and probably won't have time to read your citations closely and give them all due attention and consideration. He might very well get a bit impatient and annoyed if you hand him a document that morning and want him to read it, as he probably is pressed for time and rushing.

The "Correct" FF rule is not clear. but there is no need for another debate, but I will point out the other side of things.


These two sentences are contradictory, and the Fire Frenzy argument is Off Topic for this thread.

nosferatu1001 wrote:LOS for vehicles is fvrom the weapon mount. So for some vehicles you may be able to get 12" away from them without them being able to see you.

The Fire Frenzy argument is Off Topic for this thread.

I'll agree to that. But the quote is "within 12" which didn't make any sense to me. "Within 12" so like... 3 inches away.

Tabo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:LOS for vehicles is fvrom the weapon mount. So for some vehicles you may be able to get 12" away from them without them being able to see you.

The Fire Frenzy argument is Off Topic for this thread.

I'll agree to that. But the quote is "within 12" which didn't make any sense to me. "Within 12" so like... 3 inches away.

Well, whoever wrote that was wrong. You cannot infiltrate to 12" or less ever.

In terms of your written argument to the TO, check if the TO already has a FAQ he's using. If he's using INAT, check the INAT ruling and assume that's what you're stuck with (to the benefit of CSM players). If he doesn't have a FAQ he's working off of, then it would be appropriate to submit your argument about fire frenzy.

Grakmar wrote:

Tabo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:LOS for vehicles is fvrom the weapon mount. So for some vehicles you may be able to get 12" away from them without them being able to see you.

The Fire Frenzy argument is Off Topic for this thread.

I'll agree to that. But the quote is "within 12" which didn't make any sense to me. "Within 12" so like... 3 inches away.

Well, whoever wrote that was wrong. You cannot infiltrate to 12" or less ever.

In terms of your written argument to the TO, check if the TO already has a FAQ he's using. If he's using INAT, check the INAT ruling and assume that's what you're stuck with (to the benefit of CSM players). If he doesn't have a FAQ he's working off of, then it would be appropriate to submit your argument about fire frenzy.

I checked in INATfaq and i didn't see a ruling about it. I'll check again. Could you tell me the page it's on?

I'm sorry, what are you confused about? The rules for infiltrate, on page 75, clearly say "more than 12" and "more than 18".

If you're looking for the INAT ruling on Fire Frenzy, that's on page 31 of the INAT:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/up/INATFAQv4.3.1.pdf

To sum up what Deathreaper and Nos mentioned, the bone of contention on Dreads and Fire Frenzy is LOS for vehicles.

The reasoning Nos (and the INAT council) follows is that the LOS rules require a target to be in the firing model's LOS before it pivots, to be legally selected as a target. This side points to the rules for dreadnought frenzy as additional evidence, noting that the Fire Frenzy rules specify that the unit must be in LOS, but the Blood Frenzy rules just say the nearest enemy unit.

The reasoning Deathreaper (and others) subscribe to is that Dreadnoughts draw LOS like infantry, and thus can pick a target without regard to their actual LOS as drawn from their barrels, then pivot toward that target after it has been selected.

page 31 of the PDF. 2nd question for Chaos Space Marines.

CSM.40A.01 – Q: Will a Chaos Dreadnought
suffering from „Fire Frenzy‟ pivot to face a target
directly behind itself (if that is the closest target)?
A: No. The Dreadnought selects the closest target within
the 45 degree arc of fire of any of its weapons and then
pivots to face that target [clarification].

Mannahnin wrote:I'm sorry, what are you confused about? The rules for infiltrate, on page 75, clearly say "more than 12" and "more than 18".

I know. The question i had was are vehicles some how a special ruling. Justification being a Land Raider can't see you sneak up on it. I thought it was insane but i saw no one argue with the person instead of saying "that's insane" People said "Yep". I was just confused and wanted to make sure people were just being stupid.

Also Grakmar, Thank you. I can't believe i missed that. I feel like an idiot.

Ah, okay. I think a lot of people use the phrase "within 12" when they actually mean "just outside 12" due to sloppiness and possibly hangover from how the rule was less-clearly expressed in previous editions.

If that person was saying "yeah, you can infiltrate your dudes 3" away from a landraider" then that is insane, and I have no idea why everyone didn't immediately say so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, Grakmar gives me deja vu sometimes, as he often posts rules in a similar manner to me, and he uses the same Eldar rune that was my avatar for 5+ years.