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I'm a new player and i've been looking at a couple of my friends lists to see what armies i'll be facing in the future. my friend runs a tau list and to me his list seems to be the scariest of them all. his favorite style of playing is to castle up. couple of broadsides and hammerheads surrounded by kroot/fire warrior screen and a few more broadsides at the sides of the board, piranhas and devilfish to block advancing vehicles and other units. add a couple of battlesuits in some fire something loadout (sorry i can't remember what he said) and he seems to have a very scary list especially against a elite heavy list, which is what a pure gk list looks like (or mine does at least). i'm probably going to have to fight him at some point so anyone have any ideas as to how to counter this? i'm actually still planning a list which is something like this ( yes it probably sucks) :

hq
grandmaster , psychotroke grenades , blind grenades , 3 servo skulls - 210

elites
5 purifiers , 2 psycannons , 1 demon hammer , razorback with psybolts - 195
5 purifiers , 2 psycannons , 1 demon hammer , razorback with psybolts - 195
5 paladins , 2 psycannons , brotherhood banner (to be accompanied by the grandmaster ) - 340

troops
5 terminators , psycannon , brotherhood banner - 250
5 terminators , psycannon , brotherhood banner - 250

heavy support
dreadknight , heavy psycannon , gatling psilencer , teleporter - 280
dreadknight , heavy psycannon , gatling psilencer , teleporter - 280

that's the list, i didn't make it to counter the tau list but more as an attempt to create a balanced list although it tends more towards close combat. i didn't include the dreadnoughts because i don't like them, so i'd like to keep it that way , although if that's too stupid i guess i could compromise. anyway how would this fare against a tau list like that? all i know is that i should probably get in to cc asap and hope for the best although he does have a lot of things in the way to make my life difficult. i particularly fear that my small model count won't be able to take all that fire, and that i don't get enough into close combat before i lose.

Drop the guns on the dreadknights, they are totally useless.

Drop the brotherhood banners everywhere. They are only hurting you and wasting points.

Take some psy-autocannon dreadnoughts.

Basically what Ph34r said. Dreadknights can be useful (if horrendously ugly), but your loadout is overpriced and useless.

Brotherhood banners are great, but only when the units holding them are comparitively large. Otherwise, you won't really make up for the attacks that you end up losing by taking it in the first place.

Interceptor squads and Rifleman Dreadnoughts with psybolt ammo will tear his long range units a new one.

You're basically trying to do way too much. Pick a theme, and stick to it. Purifiers are awesome, Paladins are awesome, but you'll rarely have enough points to do both properly. Paladins are begging to be made into a deathstar, there's no such thing as a "well balanced" Paladin army. Drop them.

i see, i took the banners because they auto pass the force weapon checks which is always good. how many dreadnoughts? i would like to keep at least 1 dreadknight if possible, i'll probably drop the purifiers for more paladins. also, should i just drop the terminators for even more paladins or keep them? i don't know about themes but i want something like a terminator/paladin spam list. btw won't the dreadnoughts just die to railgun fire?

Right now, you list just looks like you took some units. You need to think about what the different elements of you list do together. Here are a few of the Basic Templates for Grey Knight. Pick one and then customize it a bit.


1) The Shunt Punch: Interceptors and Dreadknights with Teleporters that are given Scout from a Grandmaster. First turn assaults will ruin a Tau player's day.

2) Purifier lists: This uses Crowe and then units of purifiers in Rhinos or Razors. Purifiers are good in the shooting phase, very good in the assault phase, and are not many more points that the regular grey knights. Long Range Support from Psyrifle Dreads. Librarian with shrouding is the second HQ

3) Henchmen Lists: Corteaz plus MSU Henchmen, you can take some Purifiers for support, and Psyrilfes for Heavy Support.

4) "Pure" GK list: Looks a lot like the Purifier list, but you use strike squads because you do not like having Crowe.

5) Paladin Lists: Whether you use Draigo or not, these lists are not going to be balanced. Paladins are a Deathstar, and as such will dominate your list if you take them.


-------------------------------------
The regular Terminators are a little less good that they should be.

Deathwing lists are good because you can mix the TH/SS terminators with CMLs
Loganwing lists are good because you can mix Expendable bodies with CMLs

Honestly, I am not really sure what to do with GK terminators. They are well rounded, but not that great at any one thing. They shoot okay, but you can get storm bolters and psycannons on other untis, and PAGK can move and shoot (although with a few less shots). In assault, you can get some good options, but you can not stand up to something like Assault Terminators.

The other problem is their transport options. You need either a Storm Raven or a Land Raider and both of those are a lot of points. You can not shoot out of either of these and their shooting is one of their best assets.

I guess the best thing to do is take a Psycannon and deep strike them. Psychic communion helps, but you need the Grand Master on the board to do that.

of all i think the purifier and the shunt punch are going to be my favourite. although how do the purifiers fare against elite lists? they don't seem have any high stat level units that can take on hq units like greater demons , trygons and other units like that. unless i can take a dreadknight with them? and how would the purifiers advance in the face of railgun fire? sorry i haven't played any games yet so i don't understand a lot of things

A lot of how your army fares against elite type armies depends on what you arm the specific models with. Purifiers with halberds are a great option, because they are good against both horde lists and MEQ lists.

Cleansing flame is absolutely heinous, particularly with combo charges versus horde units. However, against smaller more elite units, you might consider hammerhand. With I6 and S5. The strength bump on the I6 models might actually be more useful than the 3-5 wounds from cleansing flame that will almost certainly be saved. I haven't played or seen enough games to know for sure, so this is just my "theoryhammer," so take it with a grain of salt.

IMHO, terminators are relegated to more of a support style unit, or an objective grabber style of unit. They can have decent shooting and/or decent combat capabilities, or a mix; but they are not overwhelming at anything. A unit of 10 combat squaded allows for some more specialization, but I'm not sure I would go that route unless taking an all-terminator list, or unless playing at higher points. One squad of 5 is about all you need.

A dreadnought is almost mandatory in an all-comers list, particularly if you are not using a librarian, just to bolster the psychic defense.

I also would try to keep the dreaknights under 200 points. You need to think of them as being a large daemon prince/dreadnought hybrid and play them accordingly.

svendrex wrote:
Psychic communion helps, but you need the Grand Master on the board to do that.

Or do you? Until it's FAQ'd, we can't know for sure.

Tau are a really tough opponent for Grey Knights. They have withering long ranged firepower. They can pour in lots of high(ish) strength shots at close range. They don't put much emphasis on infantry armor, so the power weapons are wasted on them. And the extremely low model count of grey knights work against them. All in all its one of the toughest match ups for grey knights (Tau actually good at something?).

You need to shut down his shooting through assault. Outflanking is going to be your friend, as well as quick infantry. Get in his face as fast as possible.

yeah thats what i thought too , would spamming razorbacks with 5 man purifier squads and a couple of psyflemen dreads be more effective or a two stormravens and a couple of rhinos with psyflemen?

Be aware that if you build a "shunt punch" list it more than likely will not last. Scout states you are allowed a "normal move" before the game starts. Shunting is not a normal move and more than likely is not allowed as a Scout move. Therefor you could shunt on turn 1 and then assault turn 2. Just a polite heads up to not be set on a shunt punch list until the FAQ is out.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

svendrex wrote:
Psychic communion helps, but you need the Grand Master on the board to do that.

Or do you? Until it's FAQ'd, we can't know for sure.

I've heard this before, and every time I wonder how people are actually using powers on a guy who isn't even deployed... If you need a FAQ to make a determination on this... I don't know what to say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

veidin wrote:Be aware that if you build a "shunt punch" list it more than likely will not last. Scout states you are allowed a "normal move" before the game starts. Shunting is not a normal move and more than likely is not allowed as a Scout move. Therefor you could shunt on turn 1 and then assault turn 2. Just a polite heads up to not be set on a shunt punch list until the FAQ is out.

yeah, the FAQs on scout moves could come out as odd as allowing the BA players the ability to use smoke during the scouting phase... Oh wait, they did, didn't they?

notabot187 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

svendrex wrote:
Psychic communion helps, but you need the Grand Master on the board to do that.

Or do you? Until it's FAQ'd, we can't know for sure.

I've heard this before, and every time I wonder how people are actually using powers on a guy who isn't even deployed... If you need a FAQ to make a determination on this... I don't know what to say.

Just sayin', there's no rule stating you can't use psychic powers when in reserves, it's just that Psychic Communion is pretty much the only psychic power without either a target or an area of effect. Shady as gak? Yes. Technically permitted? Yes. There's nothign saying that your permission to cast psychic powers is revoked because you're in reserves-


For what it's worth, the fluff supports the notion that it'd be useable while reserved.

got some parts of a new list down
HQ
castellen crowe - ( can't write )

TROOPS
10x purifiers ( 2 psycannons, 1 incinerator , 2 master crafted nemesis hammer , 5 halberds )
+ rhino - 330

10x purifiers ( 2 psycannons, 1 incinerator , 2 master crafted nemesis hammer , 5 halberds )
+ rhino - 330

5x purifiers ( 1 incinerator , 1 master crafted nemesis hammer , 3 halberds )
+ razorback ( psybolts) - 181

5x purifiers ( 1 incinerator , 1 master crafted nemesis hammer , 3 halberds )
+ razorback ( psybolts) - 181

HEAVY SUPPORT
dreadnought ( 2 twin linked autocannons , psybolt ammunition ) - 135
dreadnought ( 2 twin linked autocannons , psybolt ammunition ) - 135
dreadnought ( 2 twin linked autocannons , psybolt ammunition ) - 135

that leaves about 423 points to spare. what should i spend it on? if i'm not wrong i need some elite killers to handle threats like terminators with stormshields and the likes, so what should i take? i'd rather it'd be something that's pure grey knights, no inquistors, but if i have to then i guess i'll see.

Well I play tau and for me my biggest fear is deep striking and jump infantry. I would say your friends playing and old list style that does not work well competitively anymore, against most other strong races anyways. He is basically just sitting in the corner waiting for you to go after him ya? I would say get something in melee behind his kroot and FW screen and he is a goner. It would be easier to know if you gave his army list. His kroot should be easy to pick off in one shooting phase while his elites and BS can be taken out in assault. Sorry I cant give more detailed advice as to which Grey Knight units will enable you to do this, I only play tau lol just thought I would give you some advice from the other side of things, and since I dont know more specifics its hard to help out

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

notabot187 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

svendrex wrote:
Psychic communion helps, but you need the Grand Master on the board to do that.

Or do you? Until it's FAQ'd, we can't know for sure.

I've heard this before, and every time I wonder how people are actually using powers on a guy who isn't even deployed... If you need a FAQ to make a determination on this... I don't know what to say.

Just sayin', there's no rule stating you can't use psychic powers when in reserves, it's just that Psychic Communion is pretty much the only psychic power without either a target or an area of effect. Shady as gak? Yes. Technically permitted? Yes. There's nothign saying that your permission to cast psychic powers is revoked because you're in reserves-

A unit in reserve can't take damage, and seeing as how you could fail your test on a perils of the warp roll and be forced to take a wound, the kind of kills the idea right there. If this was allowed, then you'd have idiots claiming they could keep Master of Ordinance or Tech marines in reserve and still fire their weapons since they have unlimited range.

This is just another one of those "show me where it says I can't" arguments people have been trying to do like that whole "My dreadknight can ride in a storm raven" crap. These ideas have never been in the game before, and seeing as how 5th edition has been about trying to make armies have generic, universal rules, I don't know why everyone thinks GW would give an army units that break established rules.

For what it's worth, the fluff supports the notion that it'd be useable while reserved.

lol no it doesn't. He's not even at the battlefield. How can he guide reinforcements to the fight when he doesn't even know where it is yet?

Against Tau, getting into close combat will certainly be the key, and 'shunt' units are the obvious solution. Units that can lay down some serious hurt in the shunt turn would be ideal.

lolplox wrote:I'm a new player and i've been looking at a couple of my friends lists to see what armies i'll be facing in the future. my friend runs a tau list and to me his list seems to be the scariest of them all. his favorite style of playing is to castle up. couple of broadsides and hammerheads surrounded by kroot/fire warrior screen and a few more broadsides at the sides of the board, piranhas and devilfish to block advancing vehicles and other units. add a couple of battlesuits in some fire something loadout (sorry i can't remember what he said) and he seems to have a very scary list especially against a elite heavy list, which is what a pure gk list looks like (or mine does at least). i'm probably going to have to fight him at some point so anyone have any ideas as to how to counter this? i'm actually still planning a list which is something like this ( yes it probably sucks) :

hq
grandmaster , psychotroke grenades , blind grenades , 3 servo skulls - 210

elites
5 purifiers , 2 psycannons , 1 demon hammer , razorback with psybolts - 195
5 purifiers , 2 psycannons , 1 demon hammer , razorback with psybolts - 195
5 paladins , 2 psycannons , brotherhood banner (to be accompanied by the grandmaster ) - 340

troops
5 terminators , psycannon , brotherhood banner - 250
5 terminators , psycannon , brotherhood banner - 250

heavy support
dreadknight , heavy psycannon , gatling psilencer , teleporter - 280
dreadknight , heavy psycannon , gatling psilencer , teleporter - 280

that's the list, i didn't make it to counter the tau list but more as an attempt to create a balanced list although it tends more towards close combat. i didn't include the dreadnoughts because i don't like them, so i'd like to keep it that way , although if that's too stupid i guess i could compromise. anyway how would this fare against a tau list like that? all i know is that i should probably get in to cc asap and hope for the best although he does have a lot of things in the way to make my life difficult. i particularly fear that my small model count won't be able to take all that fire, and that i don't get enough into close combat before i lose.

If you want to play with DKs play with DKs, you don't have to go cookie cutter and field 3 psyfleman to conform with every other GK player.

That being said 300 points on upgrades for 2 dreadknights is excessive and wasteful of points.

You have servo skulls, and DKs can deep strike without the teleporter. You also have a grandmaster which can allow DKs to outflank via scout moves.

Try out 2 DK's with nothing but the Hellhound flamethrower and that will save you about 250 points. The stats are exactly the same as the Hellhound's flamethrower, and they are far better than heavy psycannons. When compared to the heavy psycannon they both wound T4 on a 2+, they both ID T3, and they are both AP4. The trade off is the heavy psycannon rends 1/6 times against 2+/3+ armor, and the hellhound flamer ignores cover. Template and large blast weapons are best used against clustered units, and people tend to cluster when they are in cover. Against MEQ clustered in cover a rend from a heavy psycannon means the MEQ takes a 4+ cover instead of a 3+ armor which is not that big of a deal, and 4+ armor save units like Tau/Eldar take a 4+ cover instead which is completely irrelevant. Against units like Eldar or Tau the hellhound flamer will wound a on 2+, ignore the 4+ armor save, and ignore the 4 + cover save. It also never scatters just place it anywhere within 12" of the DK with the small end being closer than the big end.

Combined with a servo skull the DK can deep strike close enough to the tau lines that it can use the flamer. I forgot the exact length of the template, but it is very effective out to an 18" range which is a very easy deep strike when you only scatter 1D6" It's like having a Hellhound that is a MC and has DOA.

*Edit for a major brainfart, said Chimera when I meant Hellhound multiple times*

I've also had some luck flanking the Terminator squad... Bring the full 10 man squad, give them scout and if you'd like, combat squad them and hope for the best... Especially if you've already crashed a Dreadknight into their lines...

Keep in mind that the tau have *almost* no AP3 weapons. Terminator armor, more often than not, is almost worthless. More bodies, more bodies, more bodies. A 20 point strike squad grey knight is going to kick ass just like a however many point paladin. Speed and numbers are key against Tau.

veidin wrote:Be aware that if you build a "shunt punch" list it more than likely will not last. Scout states you are allowed a "normal move" before the game starts. Shunting is not a normal move and more than likely is not allowed as a Scout move. Therefor you could shunt on turn 1 and then assault turn 2. Just a polite heads up to not be set on a shunt punch list until the FAQ is out.

Ok, I agree. So is a jumpy-teleporty list still decent without the 30 inch Scout move shenanigans? I like the idea of it, but since I am new at this, cannot judge it properly. Note I said decent and not top of the line tournament winning.

i actually decided to drop the dreadknights in the end because i just realised i can't take down skimmers and flyers by trying to hit them in close combat, and since i don't have enough dedicated firepower i thought the dreadnoughts are the only other option without including inquisitors. btw i was going to combat squad the members in the rhino so that one would be close combat oriented (incinerator and 1 hammer with 3 halberds) and the other as fire support (everything else) is that allowed? and the army list for the tau are vary vaguely along the lines of ( not sure where the units fill the force org chart so this is just a guess):

Hq
some battlesuited commander i think......

Elites
battlesuits? fireknives or some other fire load out. something that gives a 4+ invul too i think. i think they had lots of ap3 or or autocannon equivalents. unit composition - 5?

Troops
kroot , not sure how many but enough to form a screen for some hammerheads and battlesuits or broadsides

firewarriors again unknown but one or two squads?

Fast attack
piranhas , unknown number but about 4? he said he used them to block enemy vehicles and get in the way with meltas. also comes with the 4+ invul save thing

devilfish , about 6? for blocking again i believe. might contain the firewarriors or not.

Heavy support
hammerhead(s) - railguns maybe a smart missile system? and some other things

broadsides - some amount 3 -6? smart missile systems and target priority i think

so thats sort of how it looks like, if i'm not wrong hammerhead(s) in the center and broadsides at the sides with the devilfish in the center to act as a wall. piranhas coming from the sides and battlesuits coming from somewhere. the firewarriors and kroot acting as some defense line or something. sorry thats about all i know, probably not very useful i know. btw is the new list any good? and what about the 423 pts?

lolplox wrote:got some parts of a new list down
HQ
castellen crowe - ( can't write )

TROOPS
10x purifiers ( 2 psycannons, 1 incinerator , 2 master crafted nemesis hammer , 5 halberds )
+ rhino - 330

10x purifiers ( 2 psycannons, 1 incinerator , 2 master crafted nemesis hammer , 5 halberds )
+ rhino - 330

5x purifiers ( 1 incinerator , 1 master crafted nemesis hammer , 3 halberds )
+ razorback ( psybolts) - 181

5x purifiers ( 1 incinerator , 1 master crafted nemesis hammer , 3 halberds )
+ razorback ( psybolts) - 181

HEAVY SUPPORT
dreadnought ( 2 twin linked autocannons , psybolt ammunition ) - 135
dreadnought ( 2 twin linked autocannons , psybolt ammunition ) - 135
dreadnought ( 2 twin linked autocannons , psybolt ammunition ) - 135

that leaves about 423 points to spare. what should i spend it on? if i'm not wrong i need some elite killers to handle threats like terminators with stormshields and the likes, so what should i take? i'd rather it'd be something that's pure grey knights, no inquistors, but if i have to then i guess i'll see.

Just so you know, you can't give stats or exact costs for upgrades, but listing the fact that Crowe is 150 points is just fine.

As for the list, I'd say you should spend the extra points at least partly on a third Psycannon for your Purifiers. Then you can stick your melee unit in a Rhino and fire a flamethrower out of the top hatch and have a three man shooting unit plunked at midfield to either march up, or sit in cover watching over an objective or other important spot on the battlefield. Doing that leaves you with 403 points remaining and this lets you take a pair of Interceptor squads. The load out that looks best for them is an MC daemon hammer, a pair of halberds, and a pair of falchions giving you a squad able to take all comers even though it's a bit pricey at 180 points a squad. The last 43 points gets a bit hard to spend but you can get Psybolts for your infantry units, or go for some HK missiles for a bit of an alpha strike.

but how do i take down monstrous creatures or terminators with the stormshields? their 3+ invul looks practically invulnerable to me since i don't see to have either shot volume or enough attacks to take down a squad of say 10 of those terminators

lolplox wrote:but how do i take down monstrous creatures or terminators with the stormshields? their 3+ invul looks practically invulnerable to me since i don't see to have either shot volume or enough attacks to take down a squad of say 10 of those terminators

How often do you actually see full squads of storm shields? I have never seen that. I usually see them sized to fit in a land raider of the players choice. Termies aren't hard to kill, if you lack shot volume or number of attacks, your list probably needs help. Same thing goes for dealing with MCs.

omerakk wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

notabot187 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

svendrex wrote:
Psychic communion helps, but you need the Grand Master on the board to do that.

Or do you? Until it's FAQ'd, we can't know for sure.

I've heard this before, and every time I wonder how people are actually using powers on a guy who isn't even deployed... If you need a FAQ to make a determination on this... I don't know what to say.

Just sayin', there's no rule stating you can't use psychic powers when in reserves, it's just that Psychic Communion is pretty much the only psychic power without either a target or an area of effect. Shady as gak? Yes. Technically permitted? Yes. There's nothign saying that your permission to cast psychic powers is revoked because you're in reserves-

A unit in reserve can't take damage, and seeing as how you could fail your test on a perils of the warp roll and be forced to take a wound, the kind of kills the idea right there. If this was allowed, then you'd have idiots claiming they could keep Master of Ordinance or Tech marines in reserve and still fire their weapons since they have unlimited range.

Sure you could, you just have to have line of sight to what you shoot at... which shuts that strategy down. As I pointed out, the reason that Psychic Communion could possibly work is that it doesn't have a target and doesn't require range, and as such doesn't depend on you knowing where the model is.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

omerakk wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

notabot187 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

svendrex wrote:
Psychic communion helps, but you need the Grand Master on the board to do that.

Or do you? Until it's FAQ'd, we can't know for sure.

I've heard this before, and every time I wonder how people are actually using powers on a guy who isn't even deployed... If you need a FAQ to make a determination on this... I don't know what to say.

Just sayin', there's no rule stating you can't use psychic powers when in reserves, it's just that Psychic Communion is pretty much the only psychic power without either a target or an area of effect. Shady as gak? Yes. Technically permitted? Yes. There's nothign saying that your permission to cast psychic powers is revoked because you're in reserves-

A unit in reserve can't take damage, and seeing as how you could fail your test on a perils of the warp roll and be forced to take a wound, the kind of kills the idea right there. If this was allowed, then you'd have idiots claiming they could keep Master of Ordinance or Tech marines in reserve and still fire their weapons since they have unlimited range.

Sure you could, you just have to have line of sight to what you shoot at... which shuts that strategy down. As I pointed out, the reason that Psychic Communion could possibly work is that it doesn't have a target and doesn't require range, and as such doesn't depend on you knowing where the model is.

The difference between the GM and IG upgrades like officer of the fleet and astropath is the GM's psychic ability is an activated ability that requires a psychic test, while the officer of the fleet and astropath have passive abilities that require no activation. While 5th ed books have a clear history of GW allowing passive abilities to continue to work while in reserve GW has never allowed a unit with an activated ability to activate the ability from reserve.

Also as previously noted a unit in reserve can't take damage. Keeping the GM in reserve means he is 100% safe from perils of the warp and every other race's psychic defenses such as Eldar runes of warding, psychic hoods, and in the shadow of the warp.

I just don't see the FAQ or a TO making the call that a unit can activate a psychic ability while still in reserve.

schadenfreude wrote:

Loads'o'text

The difference between the GM and IG upgrades like officer of the fleet and astropath is the GM's psychic ability is an activated ability that requires a psychic test, while the officer of the fleet and astropath have passive abilities that require no activation. While 5th ed books have a clear history of GW allowing passive abilities to continue to work while in reserve GW has never allowed a unit with an activated ability to activate the ability from reserve.

What I'm saying is that all the "non-passive" things that GW haven't allowed need either a target or a place to measure AoE from. Psychic Communion doesn't have either, and as such there could be a very slim chance that it'll be allowed. I agree that it's shady as gak though.