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How many kill points is/are Mordrake and his Ghosts.

I can see 2 as they are both HQ's but he is an upgrade.

Also if he is alone and you create a ghost and it dies is it an extra kill point?

If you kill Mordrake all his ghosts die instantly.

They are a retinue and leave when he dies and he cannot separate from them as per IC rules making them much different than honor guard or a command squad so that makes them 1 unit which is 1 kill point.

That is what i was thinking but i wanted to see what other people think.

LegendJRG wrote:They are a retinue and leave when he dies and he cannot separate from them as per IC rules making them much different than honor guard or a command squad so that makes them 1 unit which is 1 kill point.

They are NOT a retinue, as Mordrak is NOT an IC. He acts like an upgrade character in the unit

As such no matter WHAT happens, the unit is only ever one kilpoint.

Being an IC is not a requirement for having a retinue.

LegendJRG wrote:They are a retinue and leave when he dies and he cannot separate from them as per IC rules making them much different than honor guard or a command squad so that makes them 1 unit which is 1 kill point.

An IC and their retinue are worth 2 kill points, not 1. See page 91 for the Kill Point rules.

kirsanth wrote:Being an IC is not a requirement for having a retinue.

It kind of is. The retinue rules are a part of the rules for ICs joining and leaving units. And they state that after the retinue dies, the character starts counting as an IC from that point... which certainly seems to be written under the assumption that it would be aimed at IC's to begin with.

insaniak wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Being an IC is not a requirement for having a retinue.

It kind of is. The retinue rules are a part of the rules for ICs joining and leaving units. And they state that after the retinue dies, the character starts counting as an IC from that point... which certainly seems to be written under the assumption that it would be aimed at IC's to begin with.

Only kind of.
It is never mentioned as a pre-req, and IC is not the only type of character.

In fact, the part that states they become an IC does not even say "again" or that they "return to" being an IC.

The other option leaves Mephiston and the Swarmlord (et al) as not being Unique characters since they are not IC either.
Even though most disagree with me on that.

Upgrade is a type of character, so thats covered.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Upgrade is a type of character, so thats covered.

Sure, but you started with:

nosferatu1001 wrote:They are NOT a retinue, as Mordrak is NOT an IC.

Which is what I disagreed with.

So is it 1 or 2?

It is 1. 1 unit that is not a retinue.

kirsanth wrote:Only kind of.
It is never mentioned as a pre-req, and IC is not the only type of character.

In fact, the part that states they become an IC does not even say "again" or that they "return to" being an IC.

Which is why I said 'kind of'... The thing is, if you argue that non-ICs can have retinues how exactly do you determine which units with upgrade characters have retinues and which are simply upgrade characters in a unit? Or are you claiming that Space Marine Sergeants should become IC's when their unit is destroyed?

The other option leaves Mephiston and the Swarmlord (et al) as not being Unique characters since they are not IC either.
Even though most disagree with me on that.

You've lost me there. The Unique rule is not specific to ICs. The rulebook entry for it applies specifically to both ICs and Upgrade characters. And the rule is also included in the Blood Angels and Tyranid codexes, specifying that 'Unique' units are limited... this doesn't just apply to ICs either, and would function even without the Unique entry in the rulebook.


So far as Mordrak is concerned, there is nothing that makes him an IC, or that would ever count him as a separate unit in his own right. The Ghosts are simply added to his unit. So they're not a retinue, he's a unit which has a fluctuating composition. So, IMO, it will only ever be one kill point.

insaniak wrote:Which is why I said 'kind of'... The thing is, if you argue that non-ICs can have retinues how exactly do you determine which units with upgrade characters have retinues and which are simply upgrade characters in a unit? Or are you claiming that Space Marine Sergeants should become IC's when their unit is destroyed?

I agreed with the kind of The rest gets wierd.

insaniak wrote:You've lost me there. The Unique rule is not specific to ICs. The rulebook entry for it applies specifically to both ICs and Upgrade characters. And the rule is also included in the Blood Angels and Tyranid codexes, specifying that 'Unique' units are limited... this doesn't just apply to ICs either, and would function even without the Unique entry in the rulebook.

The unique entry in the book specifies that the models be characters, and is also in the IC section. It is actually worse in that it canbe read to say that to fall within the Unique catagory the model must be an special or independent character--see the INAT ruling on Mephiston NOT being a character for any rule that mentions characters.

kirsanth wrote:The unique entry in the book specifies that the models be characters, and is also in the IC section. It is actually worse in that it canbe read to say that to fall within the Unique catagory the model must be an special or independent character--see the INAT ruling on Mephiston NOT being a character for any rule that mentions characters.

But non of that stops Mephiston from being unique because, as I just pointed out, the codex has its own Unique rule that applies to everything that has 'Unique' written in its profile.

insaniak wrote:But non of that stops Mephiston from being unique because, as I just pointed out, the codex has its own Unique rule that applies to everything that has 'Unique' written in its profile.

I see the listing of UNIQUE, but not a rule saying anything.

To confuse matters further, if I make my own Hive Fleet, the Swarmlord in it IS a special character-- page 85 of the Tyranid codex.

Editing to add:
Regardless, I was nit-picking an erroneous statement (which was only slightly off, and probably to save this confusion) by nosferatu1001, this does not matter to this thread -- apologies for the derailment.

kirsanth wrote:I see the listing of UNIQUE, but not a rule saying anything.

Page 81, 'Unit Composition'

To confuse matters further, if I make my own Hive Fleet, the Swarmlord in it IS a special character-- page 85 of the Tyranid codex.

Sorry, what does that have to do with him being Unique or not?

Taking these in the reverse order. . .

kirsanth wrote:To confuse matters further, if I make my own Hive Fleet, the Swarmlord in it IS a special character-- page 85 of the Tyranid codex.

insaniak wrote:Sorry, what does that have to do with him being Unique or not?

Special characters can (explicitly) have retinues, which Tyrant Guard can be (easily catagorized as).

Which means if the Tyrant Guard die the Swarmlord is an IC.

insaniak wrote:

kirsanth wrote:I see the listing of UNIQUE, but not a rule saying anything.

Page 81, 'Unit Composition'

This is the part I have missed. Repeatedly.
Thank you.

(85 in the Tyranids)

kirsanth wrote:Special characters can (explicitly) have retinues, which Tyrant Guard can be (easily catagorized as).

I would say 'arguably' rather than 'easily'... A retinue is fielded as a single unit with the character it belongs to. Tyrant Guard are not... they are a separate unit that the big beastie can choose to join. That in itself makes them (IMO) not a retinue.

insaniak wrote:they are a separate unit that the big beastie can choose to join. That in itself makes them (IMO) not a retinue.

If the rules said they had to start in the unit I would agree 100%, instead it only says that it must be a unit it cannot leave--which it is, so I said easily.

/shrug

kirsanth wrote:If the rules said they had to start in the unit I would agree 100%, instead it only says that it must be a unit it cannot leave--which it is, so I said easily.

It actually says that they are fielded together with a unit that they can not leave. Which, while not explicit, is certainly a hint that they're supposed to start off together as well, not just be unable to leave.

The fact that joining the unit is optional makes it not a retinue. They're not fielded together. They're fielded separately, but you can choose to join them together.

I am not really disagreeing with you. . .but!

They would not be a retinue unless they were fielded together, regardless. That it is never said that they need to START on the field together is my point.

Once they are fielded together it is not hard to argue they fit the description of a retinue.

kirsanth wrote: That it is never said that they need to START on the field together is my point.

Hence the 'arguably'... But to my mind, stating that they are fielded together does mean that they have to start together. If they're not together from the start, they're not being fielded together... they're being fielded as two separate units that you later join together.

The first line of "Unique" page 49 allows SCs to be upgrade or independent, and both are unique.

Mordrak is not a retinue, although if you field him without ANY ghost knights he will be a separate unit...

nosferatu1001 wrote:The first line of "Unique" page 49 allows SCs to be upgrade or independent, and both are unique.

Mordrak is not a retinue, although if you field him without ANY ghost knights he will be a separate unit...

even then, unless he is "removed as a Casualty", or Suffers ID; he will have a Ghost knight unit at some point in the game.

Or he suffers all 4 wounds in one phase.

So is it 1 or 2?

It is one. As mentioned repeatedly in the thread.

He is not a retinue.