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So I played a few games today, with the new codex and was wondering how everyone was playing the pschic communion power. Does the grand master, or brother captain have to be on the table or not. My argument is that I find nowhere that it says he has to be on the table to use, so hence he could use it to bring on guys from reserves, including the unit he is with. But my friends argue that he has to be on the table to use the power.

Interesting question...but this would be the only case in the game where you would be able to cast a psychic power while not being on the board.

I dont think it will work out that way.

Why? I don't see why it wouldn't be that way. It dosen't require line of sight, your not targeting anything just add to your roles. The only difference between this and the eldar autarch or astropaths is that it's a psychic test. Which actually makes it worse than the other two cause it could cause him wounds before he arives.

Pretty much, if you're not on the table...you dont effect the game. Why? b/c you're not on the table...not part of the battle.

You would actually need some sort of clarification that you could do this sort of thing. Eldrad has some powers that he could cast before deploying from reserve and he cannot...no reason why the GM should be able to.

What powers would you be refering to exactly. Also I have played at tournaments where an eldar player was allowed to use the autarchs special rule while the he was in reserves.

Tear OF The Angel wrote:What powers would you be refering to exactly. Also I have played at tournaments where an eldar player was allowed to use the autarchs special rule while the he was in reserves.

A good number of the Eldar psychic powers are beginning of turn powers, and being able to cast fortune before coming on from reserve would be handy. But you can't.

Also the Autarchs special rule specifically says it is used whether he's on table or not, so not a good comparison.

Given it's a permissive ruleset rather than trying to find where it says you can't do something try to find where it says you can. There are no rules allowing off-table models to cast psychic powers, therefore they can't.

Either the Eldar or the BRB FAQ(can't remember which) specifically tells you that models can't use psychic powers when they are not on the table.

Jidmah wrote:Either the Eldar or the BRB FAQ(can't remember which) specifically tells you that models can't use psychic powers when they are not on the table.

Neither of those FAQs say anything like that.

Chrysis wrote:

Tear OF The Angel wrote:What powers would you be refering to exactly. Also I have played at tournaments where an eldar player was allowed to use the autarchs special rule while the he was in reserves.

A good number of the Eldar psychic powers are beginning of turn powers, and being able to cast fortune before coming on from reserve would be handy. But you can't.

Also the Autarchs special rule specifically says it is used whether he's on table or not, so not a good comparison.

Given it's a permissive ruleset rather than trying to find where it says you can't do something try to find where it says you can. There are no rules allowing off-table models to cast psychic powers, therefore they can't.

Fortune requires a target. Psychic Communion does not. As for the permission to use psychic powers, page 50 of the BRB states that a psyker may use one power per turn, with exceptions explicitly written in the relevant Codex. Find me the place that says reserved units can't cast psychic powers.

Find me the place where it says they cannot shoot, either.

reserve units are not "in play" and so have no effect on the game unless their ruels specify differently.

Q: If a unit is in reserve, and it has an ability that occurs at
the start of a turn can they use that ability on the turn they
arrive? (p94)
A: No. Unless specifically stated otherwise.

Obviously not limited to psychic powers, but tells us you can't use fortune when in reserve.

Find me the place that says reserved units can't cast psychic powers.

Find me the place that says dead units can't cast psychic powers.
Find me the place that says units not in my army can't cast psychic powers.

Models not deployed on the table can't take any actions, as they are not part of the game. The only way to influence the game at all is are "an army including <this>"-rules.

Jidmah wrote:

Find me the place that says reserved units can't cast psychic powers.

Find me the place that says dead units can't cast psychic powers.
Find me the place that says units not in my army can't cast psychic powers.

There is a precedent of certain abilities (mostly reserves-affecting abilities) working while in reserves. The precedent of psykers not being able to cast while in reserves are arguably because there's no way to measure AoE, LoS or target something while in reserves. Psychic Communion doesn't need either of these and is an ability affecting reserve rolls. Comparing a legit question to something that, while correct, a five-year old could understand isn't adding anything to the discussion.

Find a precedent of any psychic power working while in reserve. Any power at all.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Find a precedent of any psychic power working while in reserve. Any power at all.

I can't, but that's my point. Up until now, every single psychic power has required either a target or a way to measure AoE from the caster (or both). Psychic Communion doesn't require either. You're probably right in that it shouldn't be allowed, but there's no power other than Psychic Communion that I know of that you could use while in reserves and not make the rules break down.

There is exactly one "precedent", and it makes an explicit exception to the regular rules, and is also an "any army that contains" rule. And it's also not a psychic ability.

The grand master is not the first untargeted psychic power in the game, you know? Weird boyz can use two of their powers without any range, LoS or anything similar.

By the way, comparing me to a five year old, while missing the flaw of your own statement, is not a sign of character.
Of course those two statemetns are utterly wrong. But if you went the step of asking yourself why they are, you would have found the exact same reason your statement is wrong. Something "a five-year old could understand".

AW - every psychic power has an implicit range associated with it - that of Psychic Hoods or SitW

If I cant measure to you to use a psychic hood, you cant use the power.

Jidmah wrote:There is exactly one "precedent", and it makes an explicit exception to the regular rules, and is also an "any army that contains" rule. And it's also not a psychic ability.

The grand master is not the first untargeted psychic power in the game, you know? Weird boyz can use two of their powers without any range, LoS or anything similar.

By the way, comparing me to a five year old, while missing the flaw of your own statement, is not a sign of character.
Of course those two statemetns are utterly wrong. But if you went the step of asking yourself why they are, you would have found the exact same reason your statement is wrong. Something "a five-year old could understand".

I didn't call you a five-year old, sorry to come across as rude, but comparing something that could actaully work with something that makes the entire ruleset break down is kinda overkill.

Aren't weirdboyz powers random though? That'd mean that they could break the rules, and as such won't work in reserves.

As for the psychic hoods (assuming that this is the unlimited range hoods, 24" ones, along with SitW, wouldn't work for obvious reasons) you'd get to use them anyway, as they don't specify range.

If you can find me a psychic power that doesn't require either a range check or a target (with the exception of the Weirdboyz) I'll happily back down.

Yet psychic hoods still dont work, as all current ones are 24" range

So you have still broken the game. If you attempt to use the power while in reserve, and I have a hood, I will now measure to see if you are in range. I'll be stuck doing that until we run out of time.

So it still breaks the game, so still cannot be used.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet psychic hoods still dont work, as all current ones are 24" range

So you have still broken the game. If you attempt to use the power while in reserve, and I have a hood, I will now measure to see if you are in range. I'll be stuck doing that until we run out of time.

So it still breaks the game, so still cannot be used.

Am I within 24" of the psychic hood? No. Thus no hood-usage for you. Besides, both WH and DA have unlimited hood range.

Aren't weirdboyz powers random though? That'd mean that they could break the rules, and as such won't work in reserves.

You are told to roll at the beginning of the turn, and "Waagh!" (basically calling an additional Waagh!) and "'ere we go" work perfectly fine from reserves, "Warpath" would work but have no effect(who cares about +1A while in reserve?), and the other three simply miss as if there was no target in range, even 'ead banger would work by RAW as you'd place a blast marker outside the table edges and thus miss automatically. Nothing game braking here so far.
Note that ALL psychic powers only affecting the own unit would work while in reserves.

However what would be game braking: A Grandmaster is attached to 3 henchmen, gets perils 3 times, henchmen fail their leadership and are now falling back. Outside of the board, 2d6 towards your table edge. Besides the fun of 2d6ing 3 apes across your LFGS towards your table, this makes no sense at all.

Yet the BRB FAQ explicitly forbids special rules that are used at the beginning of the movement phase the model arrives on the table, this includes the Great Communion. Why should a Grandmaster/Brother-Captain be forbidden to use the power, if he was allowed to use it during the turns before? GW FAQs are random, but not that random. They also consistently declare anything outside of the table edge as non-existant, see deep strike, blast markers, movement, tankshocking/ramming, kill points for reserves that failed to arrive or falling back. Everything has to stay inside the borders. Everything that still manages to get outside, even partially, does not count at all, is forced inside, or destroyed. There is no rules base (not even RAI) for a model existing and taking any actions outside of the table edges.


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Am I within 24" of the psychic hood? No. Thus no hood-usage for you. Besides, both WH and DA have unlimited hood range.

If I reserve a Librarian and put it on your army case, it is.

AW - note the "current", as in "5th ed", not 4th ed holdovers.

Yet I MUST measure to you. I HAVE to measure to the model to see if it is outside of 24" or not. If I cant measure to you, for whatever reason, the game breaks.

THere is no allowance for "cannot measure" in the ruleset.

nosferatu1001 wrote:AW - note the "current", as in "5th ed", not 4th ed holdovers.

Yet I MUST measure to you. I HAVE to measure to the model to see if it is outside of 24" or not. If I cant measure to you, for whatever reason, the game breaks.

THere is no allowance for "cannot measure" in the ruleset.

You could just measure a 24" circle around the hood, and as I'm not inside it you'd know I'm not within 24". Apologies on the "current", thought you meant latest updates of each Codex. If it makes you feel any happier, you and Jidmah have pretty much convinced me that it doesn't work, even though it'd make sense if it did. Once again, I apologize for any rude remarks I may or may not have posted.

Peace, love and understanding for the Blood God

Walrus.

If the GK codex specifically states that a power can be used from reserve it can be used from reserve. If not you're probably grasping at straws attempting to make a power work from reserve when there is nothing that says it can be used form reserve.

If psychic communion includes the words "As long as the caster is alive +/-1 from reserves roll" the argument that it can be used from reserves might have a leg to stand on, but that is nowhere in the wording.

Scenario for a psychic power being used while in reserves. An Eldar wave serpent moves 24" forward in a pitched battle deployment. The chaos player has a warptime deamon prince in reserve. Warptime must be activated at the beginning of the Chaos players turn (as per codex CSM), before reserve rolls are made. The eldar player has runes of warding. The chaos player wishes to warptime while off the table, blast the wave serpent in the shooting phase with various dakka, and charge the passengers with the warptime deamon prince. Which of the following is correct.

A) The deamon prince can not warptime while off the table, and once the deamon prince is on the table it is too late to use warptime as it must be used at the beginning of the turn.

B) The deamon prince is free to warptime while off the table before it rolls in from reserves. The deamon prince will ignore the unlimited range of runes of warding because the deamon prince is "off the table"

If your answer is A for the deamon prince, but you still insist that GK can activate their psychic power from reserve I would love to hear your logic.

I'll make it simpler. Show us one skill / spell / ability which CAN be used while the unit is in reserves. Of course one that doesn't have the specific annotation that it can be used.
I think that will make it much easier than going from the other side.

The old wargaming adage applies here - the edge of the board is the edge of the world. Nothing exists off the table. Dice that fall off the table don't count. Units that fail to move onto the table when required to are lost forever in the warp.

AW - no worries!

And, again -the rules dont actually let you do that. You have to measure FROM a unit TO a unit (specifically a model within the unit) , you cant just measure around a unit.

If you're going for a rules loophole you need to have all your ducks in a row, so to speak

Psychic test aside, can the swarmlord or the master of the fleet use their abilities while off the table?

While there is basis for argument, it's really a nonquestion. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is; and if you try to get away with it, you'll just be TFG