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Ok, me and my friend had a situation occur this weekend that SERIOUSLY delayed our game while we discussed how we were going resolve it amicably so we could move on. We decided on a course of action and managed to continue the game, But after we eventually managed to iron out what the details were we were still left with one last minor issue that we were unsure about and wanted some opinions so we can be ready if it happens again.

Ok, the situation
On the battlefield was a square building Width-5", Length-8", Height 3". On each Length was a single door making two doors total that units could enter through (Please bare in mind that this is a building and not a ruin, ruins being covered in the BRB extensively) On the roof were two hatches to allow entry/exit between the building and the roof top.

Sat on top of the roof is a Devastator squad blocking both hatches and in the previous turn my opponent had entered the lower building with his Nurgle Marines. Now, we had to ring up GW for this and we basically found that a building is basically treated like an immobile Transport vehicle and therefore because my Devo's blocked two of the hatches on the roof that if his Nurgles disembarked on their next turn they can only disembark via the doors on the ground. Equally, because an enemy squad was embarked in the building, my Devo's had no method of getting down as they can't get inside an transport of enemy troops and I couldn't climb down off the building due to my poor modelling and not giving any method other than doors and hatches. So this side of it is pretty cut and dry in our opinion, so thanks for staying with me....

The question
The question is, he is embarked inside the building which we assumed had a AV of 14 and my squad is on top. Can I shoot the building with my guys still on top? For the sake of the game I conceeded the point and we continued, but I'd still like to know the answer/your opinions.

(1) My argument is that I was not targetting my squad but the enemy building and therefore the shot should be allowed
(2) His arguement was that I couldn't take a shot that could possibly injury my own troops (eg building explodes)

This situation should not have happened. A building's roof is supposed to be impassible terrain, so nothing may sit on top of it. This also leads to all kinds of problems when units on top of buildings start falling back.

In addition, even if you are sitting on top of the building(skimmer/jump infantry), no one may enter the building, as he would be moving within 1" of one of your models.

Last but not least, nothing prevents you from shooting something that might explode. There is no rule against shooting vehicles in base contact with your own units either.

Is there a rule that says the top of buildings should be impassable terrain?

The top of a building is really still inside the building, so you were still embarked in it. If you put units on the roof you get better lines of sight but the building counts as open topped when shot at. The units on top can fire at what they can see but are unable to be shot at, as they are still inside.

This is a rule that I missed until after a few games of planetsrike.

1) The building is an immobile transport vehicle. It is impassable terrain (defined in the rules for buildings) INCLUDING the roof

So your devastators could not have deployed there.

2) What you COULD do is deploy your devastators *inside* the building. Each shooting phase you then declare if they are shooting from the top of the building (as it had a suitable open area) or not. If you DO shoot from the top the building then counts as open topped next shooting phase.

3) THis all means there is no way for the PM to get inside the building - you were already in it.

if the building was in his deployment zone he could have deployed inside.



once a building is occupied it is a transport vehicle with AV14.

your guys may fire from any predetermined fire points OR they may stand on the roof so the vehicle counts as opentopped(everyone can fire)


if the building is destroyed it becomes difficult terrain from that point on(buildings can't explode IIRC, they can only be wrecked. any damage result except for stunned/shaken will wreck it)



for the question, the situation shouldn't ever have come up, but here is how you could have changed it.


count the lower and upper sections as 2 different buildings

Grey Templar - not entirely true. ONly bastion equivalents are AV14, everything else should be case by case. Additionally AV14 tends to be fairly broken - AV12 is the most common usage.

So in a nutshell we completely stuffed up in that regard, I do hate getting rules wrong, though this one was caused by the fact we almost never use Buildings you can enter in our games.

Thanks for the responses. Basically what I need to do is clear, either finish modelling it as a bunker with roof as impassible as per BRB, or, model the building with ladders and railings and treat it as a terrain piece and not a building.

The treating it as two buildings intrigues me, though I'm not sure its easily done and might possibly cause issue's. Though I'm going to think about it. Maybe no access to roof from inside the building but a ladder on outside to the roof for example

Cheers all

You could also model the building with parapets around the edge of the roof so you can then occupy the roof and fire from there(see page 80 of the BRB).

Treating it as two buildings requires another houserule, however - as moving "upwards" qould require a unit to disembark and the embark the upper building (and vice versa when moving "down") so would cause issues.

The easiest way is to make it a complete, standard building with access to the roof. The "roof" of a building lets all models fire out, rather than the 1 per actual firepoint it they are hiding inside the building.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Grey Templar - not entirely true. ONly bastion equivalents are AV14, everything else should be case by case. Additionally AV14 tends to be fairly broken - AV12 is the most common usage.

right


serves us right for not having any buildings other then bastions

HellsGuardian316 wrote:Thanks for the responses. Basically what I need to do is clear, either finish modelling it as a bunker with roof as impassible as per BRB, or, model the building with ladders and railings and treat it as a terrain piece and not a building.

It's perfectly acceptable to model it with a roof that models can occupy. It's just that, because it's a building, models can only be on that roof if they embark into the building.

Exactly. If it's an intact building, putting models on the roof is part of them being embarked. It's a choice you can make with an embarked unit, to give them better LOS/models which can shoot without being limited by the firing points, at the tradeoff of giving your opponent +1 to his damage rolls against the building.

The building rules are actually pretty clear and functional. More people should read them.

The biggest issues are just agreeing with your opponent on capacity and AV.

Grey Templar wrote:if the building is destroyed it becomes difficult terrain from that point on(buildings can't explode IIRC, they can only be wrecked. any damage result except for stunned/shaken will wreck it)

I'd also like to point out, that this is not at all correct. Buildings treat all non-destroyed results as "shaken" (weapons mounted on the building can be destroyed), and wreck+explode as normal.

HellsGuardian316 wrote:The treating it as two buildings intrigues me, though I'm not sure its easily done and might possibly cause issue's

I agree. Destroying the lower building and leaving the roof intact seems like a pretty contrived circumstance.

Why's that? it happens irl. 1 level of the building gets blown to bits and explodes, the level above/below is fine. Especially any building meant for a warzone. I usually set each floor as a separate building, and roofs either as a separate building, or impassable. but having the hatches you mentioned, or the ladder would make it all feasible. I'd make the roof a cover save rather than a building though. Rules like this have made for some interesting games for me. LF on one floor, necrons on the floor above... was fun

Mannahnin wrote:Exactly. If it's an intact building, putting models on the roof is part of them being embarked. It's a choice you can make with an embarked unit, to give them better LOS/models which can shoot without being limited by the firing points, at the tradeoff of giving your opponent +1 to his damage rolls against the building.

The building rules are actually pretty clear and functional. More people should read them.

The biggest issues are just agreeing with your opponent on capacity and AV.

^This.

I have no problems with those rules - they are adequate enough for the task.