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Long story short,

I got into Warhammer Fantasy battle last year, bought a ton of minatures, got overwealmed with the sheer ammount I needed to paint, got burnt out and sold it all.

Now i'm looking to get into a smaller scale game where I dont need hundreds of models to have a decent game, and there appears to be quite a few options out there.

Money isn't an issue, the time to paint a ton of models is.

I would like you guys to compare the following games I got in mind to give me a better idea for what to go for as i'm currently split between:

*40K
*INFINITY
*WAR MACHINE
*HORDES
*FLAMES OF WAR
*OTHERS?

To be honest, I like ALL themes (sci fi/ww2 etc) and have no particular agenda other than decent models and great gameplay, with a relative small model count.

I'm wanting to know the pro's and con's for the above games so I can compare them in one place, perhaps even one's that I havn't included above.

40k is a no go

Even at 500 points you're shelling a lot of cash for some armies and not a lot players like 500 point games, too restrictive for certain armies

Warmahordes is halfway between small and large, 15-35 point games are common. The smallest of games are easily playable with $50 from a battlebox but creating specialized armies might take up some moola

Infinity is straight up skirmish, dont need too many models although some of them cost a bit becuase they;re metal. Dont know too many of the rules myself but I know that its a fast game

Flames of war is kinda like 40k. Many people do call it the 40k of historicals. Small point games are available (around 600 or so) but most people I know like larger 1500-1750 games. Cost depends on what you buy. x5 tiger tanks could cost $40 while x3 infantry platoons+support could get $150. There are plenty of smaller sized ww2 games though

Its very dry stuff, but an excellent system for very abstract miniatures gaming, historicals very period accurate, and kind of anything goes fantasy.. super short rulebooks and uses probably a couple of handfuls of figs, either 15mm or 25-28mm scaling rules are both provided, on a 2x2 play area. My old college roomate used to play it. It's not a candy coated game at all, and has the same kind of following as old school napoleonic/civil war type gamers.

Wargames Research Group: Hordes of the Things (fantasy/scifi), De Bellis Antiquitatus (historical)

As I said, it's very abstract but I thought it was fun. Might not be your thing it's a huge system shift from GW style "strategy" games. There's no wounds, or to hit rolls, just combat resolution dice and variables. They have a website for Wargames Research Group.

From your list I only have real experience with Warmachine/Hordes. They do use significantly fewer models than GW games do, but the trend I've seen is that WM players still buy just as many models as GW players do. It's just that they are able to field a wide array of lists with that number of models. It's a different game than 40k, with every model/unit having specific (and many times exclusive) abilities, in contrast to 40k's abstracting models in a unit to die pool additives. Because of these specific abilities it can get unwieldy in larger games where, say, a die pool system has a bit more flexibility.

Have you looked into Malifaux? I've not played it, but I've heard good things about it. From what I understand it uses much fewer models than the "standard" WM game does, like maybe 5 or 6.

Warmahordes, do it. You wont be disappointed.

Hm. Small amount of models, good gameplay...

40k is right out.

Flames of War cooould be playable, but only if you play a Tank company. And if you don't play Soviets. It's a great game system, but you may want to see if it's popular in your area first.

Infinity - great rules, amazing models. Check out Beasts of War, as they had an Infinity Week a bit ago. Tons of videos.

Warmachine/Hordes - one has giant magic robots, the other very, very angry beasts. Great rules, and relatively small amount of models.

If you prefer the smaller scale stuff where you don't want to invest a huge amount of cash into miniatures and really prefer skirmish type battles consider Mordheim or Necromunda. Of course you need a gaming group who is also interested but a small group (say 4-8 people) can keep a campaign going for quite a while and it's great getting more attached to the minis since they can accumulate experience and injuries. Another bonus is all the rules can be downloaded for free from the GW site.

Not trying to take away from the Hordes/Warmachine players, but I thought I would throw this out there as an option.

I'll throw Brushfire into the ring, since I like to be able to eat and what not.

Pros:
Skirmish game that can easily scale up to larger games if you want.
Rulebook includes all the unit information for eight factions, along with base sizes for proxing.
Campagin system in the rulebook
Designers quickly answer questions e-mailed or posted on the forums.
Your supporting a small company
Starting cost is $35 per person.

Cons:
Some people don't care for the asthetic.
small company with slow release rate for models
Still very new

I'm not going to beat around the bush and try to convince you one way or another. All I'm going to say is... If you choose a non GW game you will struggle to find opponents.

oni wrote:I'm not going to beat around the bush and try to convince you one way or another. All I'm going to say is... If you choose a non GW game you will struggle to find opponents.

Subjective

Warmahordes is pretty popular. Older gamers tend to have historicals. all depends on the current scene

Well if money isn't a problem you could always pay someone to paint your miniatures.

You dont need hundreds of models for 40k..

You need 40-50 ish marines and some tanks for a marine army.

Warmachine/hords is ok, if you like paper rock scissors on who wins. its a C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-OMBO! i win game.

havent played the others.

Your best bet is to look at what games are being played around you, so you have people to play with.

oni wrote:I'm not going to beat around the bush and try to convince you one way or another. All I'm going to say is... If you choose a non GW game you will struggle to find opponents.

Nonsense.

Everyone's local game scene is different, but WHFB took a SERIOUS beating after 8th dropped and I have seen a remarkable number of converts to non-GW games.

BTW - you are aware that Warmachine ranks #2 in sales, well above Fantasy, no?


As far as Warmachine being rock, paper, scissors; I wonder if the guy above me ever played the game...

Unlike 40K, skill matters far more than list construction and here's something else you might like: no one cares if you paint your figs. Its not like GW where the fanboys get emotional if they have to play a metal army.

Spyder68 wrote:You dont need hundreds of models for 40k..

You need 40-50 ish marines and some tanks for a marine army.

That is a lot of models compared to say an infinity group of 8 models. The group you gave assuming base retail without special offers could be $250-400 easily

All backgrounds being equal, in your eyes, and with no hard limit to your budget, what do you think is most important in choosing your new game? Scalability? Model sculpt quality? Developer support? Ease of finding games?

There are TONS of skirmish-scale games out there, but they all differ on the above points, often significantly. Are you looking to find a game whenever you feel like popping into your FLGS? Any FLGS? Warmachine is the most popular low-mid model count game, from what I've seen. It's not as big as 40K, but it has a decent hold on the skirmish player base. Infinity, on the other hand, seems like a bit of a dark horse that has recently been picking up steam. It's been around for a while, now, and with steady releases and close developer support, to boot, but I barely ever heard it mentioned until the recent BoW coverage.

Personally, Warmachine never really appealed to me, much. Surprising, considering the whole "magical steampunk death-battle" thing sounds right up my alley. There are a few models I think look absolutely badass, but I'm lukewarm on the whole thing (having read the rules, but not actually played a game).

My money would go to Infinity, if you can find someone to play with. It's dead easy to pick up, using the BoW Quickstart Rules and a few proxy models (the stage I'm currently at), after which you can control the learning curve by introducing more/new models and their accompanying rules at your own pace. The models are award-winning and rightly so (well, there are a few duds, but it's more a matter of taste than sculpt quality) and Corvus Belli gives it great support, both in terms of their release schedule and free and updated rules. There's also a TON of flexibility in list-building, so you have the option of fielding a numerically small force, even in larger games (although that's not usually the best tactic, if taken to the extreme).

The great thing about 40k is that you have the option of going whatever you want. 200 models tyranids? 25 models deathwing? 10 models Dreadmob?

Also, I hate to say this but I would recommend finding a game that people near you play. Near where I am I could theoretically play Flames of War or Warmachines. Except... there are like 1-2 guys that play it. On the other hand, about 20+ 40k players.

oni wrote:I'm not going to beat around the bush and try to convince you one way or another. All I'm going to say is... If you choose a non GW game you will struggle to find opponents.

This is not true.
Sure, if you only frequent GW´s own stores you might have some trouble finding players that play something else but 40k or Fantasy (I was talking to some other WarmaHordes players in GWs at times, though). But it´s incredibly easy finding players for other games over the internet (in boards dedicated to the game in question) or visiting an independent FLGS.

As a matter of fact, it was easier to find players (that are actually fun to play against that is) to play WarmaHordes against than Fantasy/40k for me, despite having 3 GWs in a 30 minute drive at most. It was so easy in fact that I played more games of WarmaHordes in the 4 weeks since I started than I played games of WHFB in the last 6 months. And against a far larger variety of enemies, too. WHFB games were against the same 4 or 5 people, but I allready played WarmaHordes against double of that.

@original poster:
Your best bet would be looking for a FLGS close to you and look what game gets most table time there.
My FLGS, for example, has a quite large number of Warmachine players (who in turn introduced me to other players who don´t play at that store), followed by Mordheim (yes, THAT Mordheim ) and few Flames of War players. The store is big on regular board games and P&P RPGs as well.

Empathic wrote:Long story short,

I got into Warhammer Fantasy battle last year, bought a ton of minatures, got overwealmed with the sheer ammount I needed to paint, got burnt out and sold it all.

Now i'm looking to get into a smaller scale game where I dont need hundreds of models to have a decent game, and there appears to be quite a few options out there.

Money isn't an issue, the time to paint a ton of models is.

I would like you guys to compare the following games I got in mind to give me a better idea for what to go for as i'm currently split between:

*40K
*INFINITY
*WAR MACHINE
*HORDES
*FLAMES OF WAR
*OTHERS?

To be honest, I like ALL themes (sci fi/ww2 etc) and have no particular agenda other than decent models and great gameplay, with a relative small model count.

I'm wanting to know the pro's and con's for the above games so I can compare them in one place, perhaps even one's that I havn't included above.

Trust me when I say this: Go Warmachine/Hordes

oni wrote:I'm not going to beat around the bush and try to convince you one way or another. All I'm going to say is... If you choose a non GW game you will struggle to find opponents.

No-one was struggling to find opponents at Salute last Saturday.

GW games have a strong high street presence because they have a strong high street presence. They are minority once you move out of that area and play in clubs.

I'll throw in and say that if you're looking for a smaller scale game then 40k and FoW are probably out. While other commenters have rightly pointed out that these games don't strictly require largish armies I've found that even my 2K SM army consists of 50+ models, a number that I don't quite think fits into "smaller scale".

If period/fluff/background isn't important then I think the most important thing to consider, as many other commenters have pointed out, is what are your potential opponents playing? It won't do you any good to buy an Infinity army if, like me, 99% of gamers you run across have never heard of it. That being said, here's my $.02 on skirmish games that I've played:

Mordheim- My first skirmish game and probably one of my favorite games of all time. The rules are great, the campaign system is wonderful, and the backlog of old supplements that are available for free from GW means that it'll be awhile before you run out of material to play with. I'd highly recommend this game, and as an added bonus, nearly every FLGS I've visited has an active Mordheim league. The first downside is that this is a dead game, so no more content/models from the manufacturer. The second downside is that I consider the campaign system to be absolutely necessary to play this game to it's fullest potential. If you don't have a regular gaming group willing to jump in with you and you don't have a local league then I'd steer you away from this one. Uses I go U Go rules. Model requirement: ~10-20 models

Infinity- I haven't played it (see lack of opponents, above) but after reading through the rules this game seems like a lot of fun and has the kind of detailed rules I'm looking for in a skirmish game. The models definitely have an anime aesthetic to them (I'm not sure if that's a plus to you) and are extremely well done. While I can't recommend it due to my lack of playtime I can say that it gets tons of praise from those who have given it a shot. One of the things that really appeals to me about this game is the way you can react to your opponent's moves. The basic rules are available for free at Corvus Belli's website.

Warma/Hordes- Another skirmish game that I've enjoyed. I definitely enjoy the mechanics of the game, the focus on scale, and the fact that the game is primarily based around 2d6 (I like bell curve results when playing games, something GW's 1d6 focus doesn't allow for). The models look good, though they're highly stylized. As a friend put it, "it's like playing a World of Warcraft Mini's game!" The game plays well, though I do think that complaints that the game places too much emphasis on "caster kills" (Kill the enemy general and they automatically lose) does have some validity. As has been pointed out WM/H is pretty popular so finding a game probably won't be too difficult. Privateer Press, WM/H's creator, usually gets glowing reviews from its players, and hosts their own WM/H forum. I go U go system. Model requirement ~10-20

MalifauX- A new game that's all the rage at my FLGS, and has won over a significant amount of converts from WM/H in my area. The newest of the skirmish games on the list and definitely the most unusual as it relies on decks of playing cards for randomization instead of dice. I really enjoy this game and would wholeheartedly recommend it for anyone who's interested in giving it a shot. The models are very good and many tend to be rather unique. Probably the game with the smallest model requirement as most "crews" for an average sized game will tend to consist of less than ten models. Wyrd Miniatures, Malifaux's manufacturer, also has a forum on their website and basic rules available for free. The biggest selling point for me about this game is that both players are constantly involved. Each player only moves (game lingo, "activates") one model at a time and most offensive actions require your opponent to oppose them, all of which tend to minimize the amount of time you spend waiting for your opponent to finish moving their "turn".

Necromunda- I haven't played it, don't know much about it, but its players tend to rave about how good a game it is. I personally don't care much for the models but that's an aesthetic choice and truly up to each individual to make up his/her mind on. Another downside- It's another dead GW game.

Full Thrust/Firestorm Armada- I'm lumping these two together under the category of space fleet games. I'll mostly talk about FT but I'll mention that if you use FA ships then you can play both games with one set of models. I enjoy both with Full Thrust getting a slight edge (I have a blog post on why). I'm throwing these out here as merely another place to look. Most FT games I've played have been great fun and don't require a high model count. Ships tend to be very easy to paint as the variety of colors on most ships is relatively sparse. FT has free rules available (google Full Thrust Cross Dimensions) and has the added benefit of allowing you to design your own ships, meaning you can completely switch out your "army" from game to game. I don't know if this is anywhere close to what you're looking for but with the price point of getting into FT or FA and the low model count I'd recommend it, even if you only have a passing interest in fleet combat.

Too long, didn't read version- Any of the above are worthwhile contenders for your time. If you have willing opponents for any of them I'd recommend giving all of the free rules a shot and/or trying out a demo game of each at a FLGS or with proxies and a friend to see which one you like the most. My personal vote goes to MalifauX, with Mordheim coming in a close second (with the caveats above).

kenshin620 wrote:

oni wrote:I'm not going to beat around the bush and try to convince you one way or another. All I'm going to say is... If you choose a non GW game you will struggle to find opponents.

Subjective

Warmahordes is pretty popular. Older gamers tend to have historicals. all depends on the current scene

Not really outside the US though.

The best thing for him to do is check around his local store(s) to see which games are actually supported & played there before making a decision, instead of asking people on the internet who all have a different local setting.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Loki_TBC wrote:no one cares if you paint your figs. Its not like GW where the fanboys get emotional if they have to play a metal army.

This certainly isn't true.

If you have ever visited the Privateer forums you'd know quite a large % of their groupie posse get's emo about just about anything, and especially unpainted figs. Some of the worst fanboys of the internetz right there, perhaps on par with the Warseer diehards.

Thanks for all your suggestions guys, I appreciate it.

I think some of you are right with finding out which games are popular in my local area - something I hadn't thought of doing!

The only local store I can think of in my area is GW, I'm going to hunt around for a 'Local gaming non-GW store'

I live in Bournemouth South UK, if anyone else lives near the south Coast England i'd appreciate some directions :-)

If I cannot find a non-GW store I will have to settle for 40k or Mordheim

Although Infinity would be my first choice based on what I know so far

Hi all.
Have you a wargames club nearby?
If so find out what they play.
If not find out what the local gamers like and see if you can find a rule set you all like!
There are loads of free rule sets to download at 'freewargamerules'.

TTFN

If you're up for a different game system, may I recommend Battlefleet Gothic? Even a faily big 3,000 pt fleet comes out to be around 20~30 models, and most games usually tkae place at the 1000~1500 level.

Slightly OT, but I've been thinking of starting up FoW...any FoW players care to comment on how it compares to 40k?