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Im sure that the BRB trumps codex here as the rules are exactly laid out in a mirror, but can a model with a Wolftooth Necklace use WS vs WS with a meltabombs on a walker then? Or does the assaulting a walker rule still override? Im just curious and wanted to hear the communities opinion


Page 62 – Wolftooth Necklace
Replace the last sentence with “Against models with a WS
value, a model with a wolftooth necklace always hits in
close combat on the roll of a 3+.

"always hits in close combat on a roll of 3+." regardless of the weapon being used?

Grenades have their own rules on how to use them (always hits walkers on a 6 with only 1 attack per model). This would override the wolftooth necklace as specific beats general rules.

I figured as such, but just skimming through the SW FAQ/Errata again, popped the question into my head. Even if it were worded to work, RAI would say otherwise... Thanx for the post

Lukus83 wrote:Grenades have their own rules on how to use them (always hits walkers on a 6 with only 1 attack per model). This would override the wolftooth necklace as specific beats general rules.

Wouldn't that work the other way around though? General grenade rules being overwritten by codex specific wargear rules?

Nerrik wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:Grenades have their own rules on how to use them (always hits walkers on a 6 with only 1 attack per model). This would override the wolftooth necklace as specific beats general rules.

Wouldn't that work the other way around though? General grenade rules being overwritten by codex specific wargear rules?

Not quite, it's how specific the rule is

General - Attacks in Close Combat (Wolftooth Effects these)
More Specific - Attacks against Walkers
More Specific Again - Attacks Against Walkers with Grenades (Grenade rules are here)

So the wolf tooth gives you the 3+ to hit all the way down till you get to the specific rules of Grenade which make the To Hit 6+ not 3+.

Aramoro wrote:

Nerrik wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:Grenades have their own rules on how to use them (always hits walkers on a 6 with only 1 attack per model). This would override the wolftooth necklace as specific beats general rules.

Wouldn't that work the other way around though? General grenade rules being overwritten by codex specific wargear rules?

Not quite, it's how specific the rule is

General - Attacks in Close Combat (Wolftooth Effects these)
More Specific - Attacks against Walkers
More Specific Again - Attacks Against Walkers with Grenades (Grenade rules are here)

So the wolf tooth gives you the 3+ to hit all the way down till you get to the specific rules of Grenade which make the To Hit 6+ not 3+.

Sometimes I really wish so many rules weren't up for so much interpretation. Specific over general is fine until it becomes "how specific" lol. Anyways, thanks for the follow up there, I'll just shoot the stupid things instead

I can argue about that:

It is in core rulebook: codex Special rules always replace core rulebook

Use grenades in close combat is a close combat attack? If so, the codex rule surprass the core book rule...

So, you hit in 3+ with grenades...

It is not 100% for any side

My bet is: talk with your opponent, and if you could not agree, roll a dice.

Fluffy speaking: anyway would be possible, a great champion of the fighting pits is incredible with any weapon, including grenades...

The Dwarf Wolf wrote: codex Special rules always replace core rulebook

Not precisely true or Commisars and Ork mobs would be allowed to re-roll re-rolls.

As soon as the walker is stunned or immobilized at the start of the assault phase it is much easier to hit them in melee with grenades as long as you WS is not bad. The wolftooth necklace would work as soon as its stunned or immobilized so a little fire support makes it still viable to assault them and kill them with grenades.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:I can argue about that:

It is in core rulebook: codex Special rules always replace core rulebook

Use grenades in close combat is a close combat attack? If so, the codex rule surprass the core book rule...

So, you hit in 3+ with grenades...

It is not 100% for any side

My bet is: talk with your opponent, and if you could not agree, roll a dice.

Fluffy speaking: anyway would be possible, a great champion of the fighting pits is incredible with any weapon, including grenades...

I would like to agree with you, and the words sound like music to my ears... but I'm not here to find a loop hole in any GW system (as easy as it can be...) I am just looking for a majority vote with opinions with backing. At first, I was thinking exactly what you are saying... which is the only reason I posted the question in the first place.

I know you did say if the opponent doesn't agree, to settle on a roll... So you aren't just thinking about a way to take out that pesky opponent dread.

Settling on a role works well for most things in this game. But the wolf tooth necklace does say you hit on a 3+, so I think it should be a 3+.

This is an old rule since SoB, Wolftooth necklace does overrides the general rule for walkers. It states it allows hit on a 3+

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:It is in core rulebook: codex Special rules always replace core rulebook

Indeed they do. That doesn't let you ignore the usual rules heirarchy, though.

The codex allows you to ignore the normal rulebook rules on how the model hits in close combat. So the codex over-rides those particular rules. It will have no effect on more specific rules that deal with particular situations.

So the model always hits on a 3+ in close combat. That's the new 'general' close combat rule for that model. However if you find yourself in a situation that alters the closew combat rules in a specific way, that rule will in turn over-ride the codex, because it is more specific to the actual situation at hand.


Assuming that a codex special rule allows you to just ignore the entire rulebook leads to madness.

insaniak wrote:Assuming that a codex special rule allows you to just ignore the entire rulebook leads to madness.

and of course this is the entire reason we post silly things in this forum anyways. there may not always be a fine toothed comb to clear up the fuzzy trail of GW vagueness, but the heated debating is fun none-the-less ... the "madness"

The Wolftooth Necklace says that you hit on a 3+ "... regardless of comparative Weapon Skills". In essence, what it does is change all of the 4+ and 5+ on the 'To Hit' chart on page 37 of the rulebook into a 3+. It does nothing if you are not comparing Weapon Skills and therefore has no effect when used with grenades against a mobile dreadnought.

[lurk]

Ghaz wrote:The Wolftooth Necklace says that you hit on a 3+ "... regardless of comparative Weapon Skills". In essence, what it does is change all of the 4+ and 5+ on the 'To Hit' chart on page 37 of the rulebook into a 3+. It does nothing if you are not comparing Weapon Skills and therefore has no effect when used with grenades against a mobile dreadnought.

[lurk]

Read the SW errata. Comparative weapon skill is no longer part of the rule. It now only checks to see if the model being attacked has a WS value, which walkers do indeed have.

but you only hit with WS and grenades VS an imobilsed Dread.

So it would be
6 to hit dreads in combat with grenades (as it doesn't state it has a WS)
if imobilsed, 3+ to hit it (as WS now becomes a factor)

Formosa wrote:but you only hit with WS and grenades VS an imobilsed Dread.

So it would be
6 to hit dreads in combat with grenades (as it doesn't state it has a WS)
if imobilsed, 3+ to hit it (as WS now becomes a factor)

It does not ask if you need to compare WS.

It asks if the model has WS.

I really don't see it any other way and would not even be inclined to roll off for this issue.

Is placing grenades a part of close combat? Yes.

Does the target have a weapon skill? Yes.

Really, where is the argument? Does placing grenades on a walker happen in some imaginary place not called close combat?

There are lots of examples where omitting parts of the argument can lead to deceptive conclusions.

In your post you omit the caveat that grenades have their own specific rules.

Models with a WTT hit on a 3+ is a more specific designation than read the chart and compare WS. In the same way, hit in CC with grenades on a 6 is more specific than hit in CC with a 3+.

calypso2ts wrote:There are lots of examples where omitting parts of the argument can lead to deceptive conclusions.

In your post you omit the caveat that grenades have their own specific rules.

Models with a WTT hit on a 3+ is a more specific designation than read the chart and compare WS. In the same way, hit in CC with grenades on a 6 is more specific than hit in CC with a 3+.

Really? At what point did hitting with grenades become NOT a part of close combat? The WTN doesnt care about anything other then a WS being present and hitting on 3+ in close combat.

The specific versus general argument is bunk anyway. It isn't anymore specific then a piece of wargear that dictates how a specific model hits in close combat then how a specific model gets hit in close combat.

Its not that its not a part of CC, its that Grenades have very specific rules on how they work.

So its not a Regular CC attack, you do not use your full profile of attacks, there is no Bonus attack for two CC weapons, and no bonus for charging.

WTN may say you hit on a 3+ against any model with a weapon skill, but that replaces your normal to hit chart. Grenades work differently and only hit on a 6, even if you have a WTN,

What does WTN mean.

Brother Ramses wrote:I really don't see it any other way and would not even be inclined to roll off for this issue.

Is placing grenades a part of close combat? Yes.

Does the target have a weapon skill? Yes.

Really, where is the argument? Does placing grenades on a walker happen in some imaginary place not called close combat?

If it's really worded the way the OP described, this is the correct sollution. You would even hit on a 3+ if you were shooting during CC for some reason. Sadly can't check the codex from here.

Jidmah wrote:
If it's really worded the way the OP described, this is the correct sollution. You would even hit on a 3+ if you were shooting during CC for some reason. Sadly can't check the codex from here.

It doesn't matter if it is worded that way or not, the grenade rules in CC are more specific than the WTN rules. You are right, hitting is part of CC which is WHY you use the CC rules for planting grenades on a vehicle with a WS rather than the movement based rules for hitting a vehicle.

Please describe how a rule that exactly specifies how you hit a particular type of adversary (vehicle with WS) with one type of attack (which is in itself a special attack) is LESS specific than the rules how you hit adversaries in CC with a WS.

Simple. The WTN tells you to always hit on a 3+. As this is in direct contradiction to Grenades always hitting on a 6+, the codex winns out, as it always does when contradicting the BRB. Also a wargear rule is always more specific than a common rule, as the common rule applies to all models, while a wargear rule only to those actually wearing the item.

DeathReaper wrote:Its not that its not a part of CC, its that Grenades have very specific rules on how they work.

So its not a Regular CC attack, you do not use your full profile of attacks, there is no Bonus attack for two CC weapons, and no bonus for charging.

WTN may say you hit on a 3+ against any model with a weapon skill, but that replaces your normal to hit chart. Grenades work differently and only hit on a 6, even if you have a WTN,

But WTN does not differeniate between normal or non-normal or rainbow unicorn close combat. The "umbrella" of the WTN covers ALL close combat in ALL forms.

Thanks, now I have the image of my warboss throwing a rainbow unicorn at a dreadnought stuck in my head...

WS is not used in grenade attacks, thus the walker doesn't have a useable ws against melta bombs.

Jidmah wrote:Thanks, now I have the image of my warboss throwing a rainbow unicorn at a dreadnought stuck in my head...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

schadenfreude wrote:WS is not used in grenade attacks, thus the walker doesn't have a useable ws against melta bombs.

The WTN does not ask for a "useable" WS, just that the model has one. The walker has a WS in it's profile, that is all the WTN cares about.