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As the title says , does anyone know what and what doesnt work for Goblins in this edition of WH Fantasy?

What size ? x ? works?
Prefered units are: Goblin Spear / Gob Archer / Gob Spider Rider / Wolf Rider / Spear Chukka
possible units might add: Arachno giant ( how many? ) , Night Gob Fanatics , Trolls maybe?

Mandatory Characters? : Magic type? or chieftains? or perhaps the characters that boosts spider / wolf riders? Skarsnik?

Thanks for such vague question , but im pretty clueless too >.<

My ogres got stomped at 1500 pts by a guy who brought two blocks of 12 x 6 night goblins, two units of squig rider things, fanatics, and the new giant random move squig things that work sort of like the fanatics. Not sure if or how that helps you, but those random move units tend to give me a hell of a time. The two giant blocks of goblins helped his cause as well.

-Jim

LunaHound wrote:
As the title says , does anyone know what and what doesnt work for Goblins in this edition of WH Fantasy?

What size ? x ? works?
Prefered units are: Goblin Spear / Gob Archer / Gob Spider Rider / Wolf Rider / Spear Chukka
possible units might add: Arachno giant ( how many? ) , Night Gob Fanatics , Trolls maybe?

Mandatory Characters? : Magic type? or chieftains? or perhaps the characters that boosts spider / wolf riders? Skarsnik?

Thanks for such vague question , but im pretty clueless too >.<

If you want to do an all-gobbo army you are leaving aside the elite hard-hitting orc infantry (big-uns and blorcs).

Gobbos make great tarpits (cheap+nets) and charecters so cheap you can put a couple on each unit so take advantage of that.

But, but, you need something to hit hard, for which you can go two routes:
- Trolls, cheap, but need to be in the ld bubble of the general to work properly, so using them as flankers is out of the question, but they're survivable. Alternatively you may have a cheap gobbo hero on wolf to join them, but it's still a ld7 stupid unit (meaning almost half of the time you'll fail the stupidity test).
- Squig herds, now that you can choose the amount of squigs and herders you can put an all-squiggy front for 2xS5+1xS5 attacks. Make either a single big unit or MSU, as animosity and their vulnerability to missile fire will take a toll on them, low ld means if they're forced to check they'll likely flee, so use them carefully.

Magic-heavy with a shrine aracnarock-mounted lv4 + 2xlv1 kept close to the aracnarock can be quite killy, as the channeling bonus of the shrine + mushroom rule gives you an edge on the magic phase.

Also, warmachine spam still works, at least three between lobbas and divers (not too keen on chukkas unless there's 3 or 4 of them or you won't hit anything).

Then there's manglers, pump wagons and wolf chariots. They'll be priceless in taking shots instead of your infantry units and disrupt the enemy's line if they make it there.

I generally take a unit of wolves or spiders. The spider character is a nice asset against warmachine-heavy armies because of the stalking and devastating charge rule.

How do i make wolf / spider units work? MSU? or large ones?
If i recall , mounts cant support attack ( and they hit harder than the gobbos xD )

I like idea of mangler squig... too bad i dunno how to make one >.<

Trolls , what size units should i try? 3x 2? 4x2? i like the monstrous support attacks :3

I usually run 7 vanilla trolls in a 3-3-1 formation. The last one is a wound bunker to ensure the other guys feel all 18 attacks (or 6 vomits).

Until GW decide to release a mangler squig mini, my manglers are two squig hoppers on a round ork nob base.

Wolf or spiders for me are the bare minimum, that is 5. They're there to redirect, march block and generally annoy and absorb maybe 1 turn of shooting, you get them in contact for the flank/rear bonus not because they're going to do anything.

With the previous armybook I used to run one or two units of 5 spiders, now it's wolves as they're cheaper and can be 4+ AS and still fast cav.

Both the new spider and wolf rider characters look cool, but we don't allow special characters in league games so I don't think I'll have the chance to test them much.

A crazy idea that might even work is putting 3 or 4 gobbo big bosses on wolves with spear, LA and shield for just over 50 pts each and you have a Mv9, S4 (5 on the charge), T4, A3, 4+ AS fast cav.

I usually run 7 vanilla trolls in a 3-3-1 formation. The last one is a wound bunker to ensure the other guys feel all 18 attacks (or 6 vomits).

Vomits can be used as support attacks? I read on warseer that trolls can only vomit with their front rank ( maybe i read wrong lol )

Wolf or spiders for me are the bare minimum, that is 5. They're there to redirect, march block and generally annoy and absorb maybe 1 turn of shooting, you get them in contact for the flank/rear bonus not because they're going to do anything./quote]
K that'll get some used to i never used light calvary before , i used to play Silver Helm heavy list
With the previous armybook I used to run one or two units of 5 spiders, now it's wolves as they're cheaper and can be 4+ AS and still fast cav.

Both the new spider and wolf rider characters look cool, but we don't allow special characters in league games so I don't think I'll have the chance to test them much.

A crazy idea that might even work is putting 3 or 4 gobbo big bosses on wolves with spear, LA and shield for just over 50 pts each and you have a Mv9, S4 (5 on the charge), T4, A3, 4+ AS fast cav.

Ahh so basically all the Gobbo bosses are used to boost the unit they are with now? Should i give the rest of other large blocks units bosses too? If so , whats a good equipment?

Lastly , should i feel as many fanatics as i can? Feels like they are the only thing that reliably kills ( well maybe my own unit as well xD )

They FAQ'd it, at least for WoC trolls. Might have a hard time arguing that it applies to ALL trolls, but WoC trolls can projectile vomit from the second rank, third rank if they are six wide.

Who's hungry for chowder?

I think GW hasn't made a mangler because this is one of those times they are trying to inspire creativity and see what happens. I have seen a couple if cool conversions already. Plus plus you don't necessarily have to use 2 great cave squigs. Just something that represents a torrent of destruction. I saw one that was 5 squig hopper. Squigs chained up. Mine is 3 fanatics lashed tightly together with twine. A nightmare fanatic.


Tactically they are excellent. They either rip through people or draw a large amount of shooting away from the blocks.

Pump wagons are also good for this function. Give them the roller and you get 2d6 strength 5 impacts. A perfect compliment to a charge. And they are even cheaper than a mangler!

I have been trying to math hammer the little gobbo archers. But i suck at math, anyone want to figure this out?

If they hit on 5+
wounds on 5+
The target has a chance to save on 5+

How many gobbos does it take statistically to get 1 kill?

13.5, I believe.

xFinality wrote:13.5, I believe.

How did you get the number? if you can tell me the formula i can use that for everything xD

Uhhh..

A goblin has a 1/3 chance to hit.
Then each hit has 1/3 chance to wound.
Then each wound has a 2/3 chance of not being saved soooo...

(1/3) * (1/3) * (2/3) would be the percent chance each goblin has of dealing an unsaved wound.

The reciprocal of that (3 * 3 * (3/2)) would be how many goblins it would take to get one kill.

Sorry, I'm horrible at explaining, haha.

xFinality wrote:Uhhh..

A goblin has a 1/3 chance to hit.
Then each hit has 1/3 chance to wound.
Then each wound has a 2/3 chance of not being saved soooo...

(1/3) * (1/3) * (2/3) would be the percent chance each goblin has of dealing an unsaved wound.

The reciprocal of that (3 * 3 * (3/2)) would be how many goblins it would take to get one kill.

Sorry, I'm horrible at explaining, haha.

Thanks for the formula, so it'll take 54 goblin archers to take out ONE knight?

Oh wow -_-

Not sure how it's changed with the new book but my buddy bought my goblin army and with my dwarfs it's a pain in my butt. When you got 15 fanatics separating the armies I'm like a deer in headlights I don't move an inch. That and one of his 6 spear chukkas always manages to take down my grudge thrower turn 1. Yeah it's against the odds to hit it, wound it then get 3 wounds on the sucker but when he has 6 the odds are moved to his favor.

Hargus56 wrote:Not sure how it's changed with the new book but my buddy bought my goblin army and with my dwarfs it's a pain in my butt. When you got 15 fanatics separating the armies I'm like a deer in headlights I don't move an inch. That and one of his 6 spear chukkas always manages to take down my grudge thrower turn 1. Yeah it's against the odds to hit it, wound it then get 3 wounds on the sucker but when he has 6 the odds are moved to his favor.

In previous editions i guess archers are good at removing 1- 2 wounds which makes a rank incomplete. But now days people take super large units which makes archers even more redundant as it seems.

Fanatics in night gob archers seems to be the best and only viable investment im guessing? makes them harder to be charged and if things back fires, its ok since they are goblins xD


Am i just missing the big pictures on how to use ranged units ><?

I mean even archer cavalries confuses me , we pay extra points for having mounts but we still just shoot and not charge + utilize the mounts extra attacks?

How bout a gobbo archer block with the spoder banner, with that hlf their hits could end up being wounds throw in the little waagh posion spell for 5+ poison and you force an impressive number of saves.

I think the tricks with missile weapons in this edition is that you get multiple turns of shooting before melee, and your shooting gobbos are often not much weaker than their melee focused counter parts.

So if it takes (1/3*1/2*1/3 = 1/12, so 12 shots) gobbo shots to kill 1 Marauder with HW/shield/Light armor, that doesn't sound exciting. If 24 are shooting, that's just 2 a turn. Then you add another turn, then a stand and shoot reaction, and you have killed 6 before I even get into melee with you. Not too terrible, but not exciting.

Let's compare vs a giant: 1/2*1/6 to wound (no save, 6's always wound, giants are large targets if I recall) =1/12 chance to wound = 12 need to shoot to cause one wound. That's not half bad at all, considering in three turns you kill the 250 point monster.

Consider vs Chaos Knights:
5 to hit, 5 to wound 2+ save
1/3*1/3*1/6= 1/54 so you need 54 shots to drop one on average. Looks bad! But then again, over 2-3 turns those 54 shots get you 2-3 knights, which is 80-120 points, all before you have been touched. Nearly pays for the bows for the gobbos.

This leads me to believe a few things:
1) Missile units are not too exciting vs blocks unless they cost only a little more than their melee counterparts and don't lose much or any melee effectiveness.

2) They are good against small and/or expensive units. If buy 40 gobbos bows at 1 point a pop (all else being equal) and kill one chaos knight with shooting over the course of the game, those points earned their keep at least. If they kill some small redirecting units (warhounds or whatever) to avoid having my manglers or fanatics tackled and killed, good. Killing 5 warhounds and saving my manglers is a good deal for 40 points.

3) They are good vs monsters or warmachines (if you can get to them). Anything naked and tough (giants, beastmen monsters) that you just need to roll 6's to wound is really a great target for massed archers. You will roll some 6's sooner or later, and oddly a T6 naked critter is easier to hurt than a T4 with 4+ armor (1/3*1/6 vs 1/3*1/5*1/2, 18 shots vs 30)

Now, as to the assumptions, if the shooting abilities come at a premium price where just having more bodies would be better, then get more bodies. Likewise if you are really trading melee ability for those shots (say bows OR shield and spear) or worse, paying to lose ability, then you have to rethink it.


(Edited for faulty math)

Wehrkind wrote:

Let's compare vs a giant: 1/2*1/6 to wound (no save, 6's always wound, giants are large targets if I recall) =1/12 chance to wound = 12 need to shoot to cause one wound. That's not half bad at all, considering in three turns you kill the 250 point monster.

IIRC there's no longer a +1 shooting bonus for hitting a large target (not that it mad a whole lot of sense, is it really easier to hit say, a giant than tightly packed 60-strong block of chaos warriors?)

I'll be damned, you're right! Good call on that; Large Target only means you don't get cover from obstacles and stuff.

You are right that it didn't make much sense too. Shooting a giant is easier than shooting a man, but not 30 men in a bunch. I suppose figuring out when you should get the benefit and not was too complicated, so they just removed it.

jouso wrote:
IA crazy idea that might even work is putting 3 or 4 gobbo big bosses on wolves with spear, LA and shield for just over 50 pts each and you have a Mv9, S4 (5 on the charge), T4, A3, 4+ AS fast cav.

I thought heros in a unit are no longer fast cav until they leave the unit. if they are in the front of a wolf unit they dont count as fast but the wolves will go back to fast cav once the heros leave right?
the new heros have fast cav rule tho

If their mount has the Fast Cav rule the whole model does, so if the wolf has the Fast Cav rule (which I think they do) the whole model has it, and so the unit doesn't lose it.

that is awesome news, I just got the newer O and G book and I missed that. I think I was just happy that they didn't lose fast cav w shields.
If thats true then I have to try this now, that would be a nice charge with two or three gobbo bosses in the front on the unit, they can always just scoot around shooting as well or leave the unit to go off on their own behind enemy lines.
mask of eee for a super fast terror causing gobbo glob

Take a ton of goblins and Gorbad. Ld 10 with rerolls is scary.

been going over my o&g book, cant see anything saying riding a wolf grants fast cav. Its not the mount that traditionally grants fast cav status it's years of riding experience in certain tactics ie pistoliers, pretty sure once I stick characters in a unit, even a unit of just characters they dont have fast cav rule until they are out of unit, then characters move normally


Automatically Appended Next Post:
gorbad ftw

Well, that is indeed how the lore intends to look at it. But the idea is this: if a Boss chooses to ride a Wolf or Spider into battle, he's probably got years of experience doing so.

Almost positive it's in there somewheres.

It is in the BRB FAQ. If the mount has the Fast Cav rule it conveys it to the whole model.

Note: I don't have the O&G book, so I don't know if spiders, wolves, wiener dogs or whatever mounts actually have the Fast Cav rule, just that if the mount does, the whole model does.

weiner dogs have devestating charge not fast cav

*L* don't forget "Hatred: Skaven"

sean vilmont wrote:been going over my o&g book, cant see anything saying riding a wolf grants fast cav.

Page 100, under "Character Mounts"