Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Unit A has an attached IC (B). The IC is at the front and the unit is strung out.

Unit A charges enemy unit X, barely making contact and only the IC reaches B2B.

Unit X makes pile-in moves, but are also strung out, and with order they were moved, were only able to reach B2B with the IC.

So we get something like this...

...AAA
....AA
.....B
...xxxx
...xxxx
...xxxx

So, just so everything is clear, I'll ask about everyone involved.

Can A attack X?
Can B attack X?
Can X (in B2B with B) attack A?
Can X (in B2B with B) attack B?
Can X (NOT in B2B with B) attack A?
Can X (NOT in B2B with B) attack B?

Bearing in mind the IC rules about attacking/being attacked in combat, and counting as seperate units.

From what I see from you diagram, none of the As would be able to attack Xs and vice versa. They would need to be in base contact or within 2" of a squad member who is. Since the IC is in close combat he doesn't count as a squad member of that Unit.

So P. 35 tells us who can fight, Assuming A are all within 2 inches of B, they are considered engaged at the start of combat, and as such X is engaged with Unit AB (I say AB because they are one unit at the start of the fight, only when are attacks resolved are IC's treated as separate units)

So to answer your questions:

Can A attack X: Yes they can as they were engaged and within 2" of a model in their unit when you figure out who can attack.
Can B attack X: Of course, he is in BTB with X.
Can X (in B2B with B) attack A: (Grey Area) Yes they can as they were engaged and within 2" of a model in their unit when you figure out who can attack, (but I am unsure about this one).
Can X (in B2B with B) attack B: Of course, they are in BTB with B.
Can X (NOT in B2B with B) attack A: Yes they can as they were engaged and within 2" of a model in their unit when you figure out who can attack.
Can X (NOT in B2B with B) attack B: Yes they can as they were engaged and within 2" of a model in their unit when you figure out who can attack.

The difficulty for me is that the scenario described in the original post isn't possible unless unit X was out of coherency or if there were some huge amount of blocking terrain, or simply did the pile in moves improperly.

If the A's next to the B were actually in coherency, then at least one X should have made base contact with one of them, assuming X was in coherency at all.

solkan wrote:The difficulty for me is that the scenario described in the original post isn't possible unless unit X was out of coherency or if there were some huge amount of blocking terrain, or simply did the pile in moves improperly.

If the A's next to the B were actually in coherency, then at least one X should have made base contact with one of them, assuming X was in coherency at all.

It's possible to make blockages of this sort with careful placement of vehicles and careful use of terrain.

Anyway, in response to the OP:

Treat A and B as separate units. A unit can only attack an enemy if they are:
1) in BTB with an enemy.
2) within 2" of a model of the same unit that is in BTB with the enemy.

So in your example:

Can A attack X? No.
Can B attack X? Yes
Can X (in B2B with B) attack A? No
Can X (in B2B with B) attack B? Yes
Can X (NOT in B2B with B) attack A? No
Can X (NOT in B2B with B) attack B? Yes, if they're within 2" of someone who is in BTB with B.

I agree with Biccat. The IC is a unit of his own in cc.

biccat wrote:Treat A and B as separate units.

Remember this only come into account when the models attack, you figure out who is engaged before any model has attacked, and at that point the unit with the IC is still 1 unit.

So A can attack X

and X (NOT in B2B with B) can attack A (As normal)

they can do this because when we figure out who can fight we see who is engaged as per P.35. The IC 'assaults too, as it is part of the unit', and does not become a separate unit till attacks are resolved. P.49

DeathReaper wrote:

biccat wrote:Treat A and B as separate units.

Remember this only come into account when the models attack, you figure out who is engaged before any model has attacked, and at that point the unit with the IC is still 1 unit.

But you can only attack a unit that you are engaged with:
X is only engaged with B, so X can only attack B.

A isn't engaged with X, so A can't attack X.

biccat wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

biccat wrote:Treat A and B as separate units.

Remember this only come into account when the models attack, you figure out who is engaged before any model has attacked, and at that point the unit with the IC is still 1 unit.

But you can only attack a unit that you are engaged with:
X is only engaged with B, so X can only attack B.

A isn't engaged with X, so A can't attack X.

And you determine who you are engaged with at the beginning of a round of combat, at which the IC is a part of the unit. so X would be engaged with A abd B at the beginning of a round of combat which is when you determine who is engaged.

you only differentiate when it comes time to actually attack, but you determine engaged from the beginning.

pg 49:

When the attacks are resolved, however, independent characters are always treated as separate single-model units (as described under Multiple Combats on page 41), even though they have joined the unit.

pg41:

Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit.

Unit X only has models engaged with unit B and can only attack that unit. This situation would probably be very difficult to replicate in an actual game, however.

bushido wrote:pg 49:

When the attacks are resolved, however, independent characters are always treated as separate single-model units (as described under Multiple Combats on page 41), even though they have joined the unit.

pg41:

Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit.

Unit X only has models engaged with unit B and can only attack that unit. This situation would probably be very difficult to replicate in an actual game, however.

Right, X has models engaged with the opposing unit. A (the unit) and B (The independent character) are the same unit at the beginning of the combat, and you determine who is engaged at the beginning of the round of combat. P.35

Its not until Attacks are resolved that they are treated as a separate single model unit. P.49

DeathReaper wrote:
Right, X has models engaged with the opposing unit. A (the unit) and B (The independent character) are the same unit at the beginning of the combat, and you determine who is engaged at the beginning of the round of combat. P.35

"When attacks are resolved, however, independent characters are always treated as a separate single-model unit"
"and it means that they have to be in base contact with the enemy to be able to attack. Be aware, though, that this also means that independent characters can be targeted separately by models that are engaged with them!"
"Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined (from determining assault results onwards)."

Independent characters are only treated as part of the unit while assault moves are being made and during the assault results step. For everything in between, including determining who can attack who, they are treated as a separate single-model unit.

This is the key point right here:

bushido wrote:"and it means that they have to be in base contact with the enemy to be able to attack. Be aware, though, that this also means that independent
characters can be targeted separately by models that are engaged with them!"

While I think that Deathreaper's interpretation is arguable from a strict RAW point of view, if you look at the reverse example (if the unit was in base contact and the IC was simply within 2") the IC should likewise be able to attack... but that's specifically prohibited by the IC rules. It seems, when you look at the rules as a whole, that while it's a little sloppily written, the IC is supposed to be counted as a separate unit when determining who can fight as well as for actually resolving the attacks.

*shrug* I just see it as the unit getting caught with their pants down.

If, for whatever reason, the assault move or defender reaction isn't enough to get the IC into the mix, it's just an indication that you didn't position the unit quite as well as you could have.

In responce to the "It wouldn't happen argument" Below is an example.

Given the building is impassable, and not moving through other models, the closest unengaged warrior is too far away to reach B2B contact with the regular Ork boys.