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Please bear with me on this as I am NOT an expert on the lore, just a fan of the Heresy series and new to 40K gaming. I had just wrapped up First Heretic and it got my noodle to wondering. Now me thinking is a scary thing, but I got to tell ya....Lorgar got shafted. Here he was a dedicated and loyal Primarch who saw the Emperor as a God and should be revered this. Long story short, he is told this bad and to stop. He does not....BLAMMO....heresy.

Fast forward what....10 millenia? All of a sudden it is God Emperor this and God Emperor that. Countless soldiers are told to put their "faith" in the Emperor, he is worshipped by the Ecclesiarchy, prayed to by Rafen and many others, etc. etc.

What I dont know is...When did this turnabout take place? When did the Imperium begin to see the Emperor as a God? Cause if you ask me....Lorgar got screwed and should get a cookie. Brotha tried to preach the good word and got put down by da Man! He should at LEAST get an apology and be welcomed back into the fold...granted....may need to clean himself up a little bit first. Just sayin.

Well the Imperium is praising the Emperor as a god because he is not in condition to tell them otherwise.
And people begin to believe the Emperor was a god around M34-35.

Surely though there must be some record kept of the Heresy and specifically regarding the Word Bearers and why they were branded Heretics? If so would it not make logical sense that some of the more uppity chapters (I'm looking at you Ultramarines) maintain that the Emperor is NOT a god and should not be worshipped?

After the Emperor became trapped in the Golden Throne, the 12 High Lords of Terra began to manage things in the Imperium and "interpret" his will. This led to many of the Emperor's original visions of humanity being lost over time.

Following this "sacrifice" by the Emperor to save humanity, cults began to arise that exalted him. While many cults emerged at first, it would be the Temple of the Savior Emperor that would eventually gain the most support and become the most powerful. This Cult worshiped the Emperor as a God, in contradiction to Astartes practices and to the Emperor's own wishes.

Eventually the Temple of the Savior Emperor grew so large that by M32 it was recognized as the official state religion of the Imperium, renamed the Adeptus Ministorum and its head, the Ecclesiarch, was given a seat on the High Lords of Terra. This was done mainly due to the undeniable influence the Temple of the Savior Emperor already wielded in Imperial society, and probably because the Adeptus Terra recognized what kind of control and unity it gave the de-centralized and stratified Imperium.

Indeed, the only things all worlds of the Imperium have in common is religion. The Imperial Cult is probably the only thing keeping the Imperium together besides the barrel of a gun.

Brother Coa wrote:Well the Imperium is praising the Emperor as a god because he is not in condition to tell them otherwise.
And people begin to believe the Emperor was a god around M34-35.

Try M30-31. First saint was during the heresy and the Word Bearers proselytised for him during the initial crusade push.

@OP: That is one of the great lessons of the Imperium. The Emperor was about truth and no religion, but people need religion. Before he even returned to earth, people revered him as a god. Once he was a distant figure (return to Terra to work on his project), he became more of one. Add in the Golden Throne and it was all over.

I believe Harriticus is right though, M32 sounds about right for it being the official religion.

::shakes fist at Harriticus:: Darn yer logic!

While the emperor was still alive he stopped all religion- this included people worshiping him. While many people thought he was a god (understandably) the imperial cult was the religion created by lorgar. The Emperor told Lorgar that religion and superstition is bad and told him to stop. He tried to wipe out the imperial cult but some people escaped. Once he was put in the throne he became unable to fight the imperial cult and it took over quite quickly. The high lords of terra also didn't want to stop it because it was a good way of uniting the imperium- which was a lot more difficult without the emperor to hold it together.

That fact that the person who made everyone believe the emperor is a god is also one of the major people who helped kill him is one 40Ks inside jokes.

As to Lorgar being invited back, I doubt many people know that the creator of the imperial cult is now a daemon prince. It's proabaly one of the most tightly guarded secrets in the ecclesiarchy. Plus he is know a heretic- when the emperor rejected him he decided he was no longer a god and went to find some real ones. In his eyes the imperial cult was his biggest mistake.

While many chapters don't teach thier homewold's inhabitants that the emperor is a god, trying to tell others is a bad idea. The SM are useful but without the imperial cult the imperium will fall apart.

Not to mention, after the Age of Apostasy/Goge Vandire fiasco, the Ecclesiarchy has actually GAINED a lot of power.

-Religion is Chaos. Emperor saw this to be true and attempted to stop Chaos in the realm of realspace.

He then proceeded to learn you don't mess with Chaos, or you end up a piece of broccoli on a chair watching as the "children" you loved run around worshipping you in a sick ironic twist as Tzeetch laughs at you for all eternity.

Every prayer to the Emperor is a slap in the face for all that he stood for.

Grubwart wrote:Surely though there must be some record kept of the Heresy and specifically regarding the Word Bearers and why they were branded Heretics? If so would it not make logical sense that some of the more uppity chapters (I'm looking at you Ultramarines) maintain that the Emperor is NOT a god and should not be worshipped?

There are very few records of the Heresy remaining, especially those written during the Heresy itself. Entire systems of worlds were destroyed during this time, and the loss of records and technology caused incalculable damage to the Imperium. As is said, much of the knowledge possessed by the Imperium was lost, never to be regained.

The golden future the Emperor envisioned for Humanity was destroyed the moment Horus betrayed him.

the Emperor was actually being worshipped as a god long before the Heresy.

the Lecto Divinatus is what the Cult was called and the Emperor actually tried to suppress it.


in the centuries and millenia after the Heresy, the Lecto Divinatus was able to come out of hiding and eventually became the religion the imperium follows today. mostly because the Imperium found out the truth the Emperor had been hiding, the existance of the Chaos Gods.


Lorgar and the Word Bearers STILL belive the Emperor to be a god. just not one worthy of worship.

this is why I come here! You guys are a font of information. Good stuff.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:-Religion is Chaos. Emperor saw this to be true and attempted to stop Chaos in the realm of realspace.

He then proceeded to learn you don't mess with Chaos, or you end up a piece of broccoli on a chair watching as the "children" you loved run around worshipping you in a sick ironic twist as Tzeetch laughs at you for all eternity.

Every prayer to the Emperor is a slap in the face for all that he stood for.

Religion is not Chaos. That is all.

Cerebrium wrote:Not to mention, after the Age of Apostasy/Goge Vandire fiasco, the Ecclesiarchy has actually GAINED a lot of power.

Eh, I would say they lost a huge amount of it. The Ecclesiarchy lost its Frateris Templars army. While it does have the Sisters of Battle, the Templars were far larger and sounded like they were a pretty crack force complete with its own fleet.

Well this wouldn't be the only thing the emperor screwed up. *cough* Magnus and thousand Sons*cough*

All this is assuming that Lorgar wasn't already worshipping the Dark Gods to begin with.

Melissia wrote:All this is assuming that Lorgar wasn't already worshipping the Dark Gods to begin with.

iproxtaco wrote:

Melissia wrote:All this is assuming that Lorgar wasn't already worshipping the Dark Gods to begin with.

I suppose he kind of indirectly worshipped the Chaos Gods before he enacted his holy war. However he really did worship The Emperor as a God because he saw the Emperor's coming in a vision. Believing this to be his God, he prosecuted a holy war against the population of the planet who worshipped the old gods When the Emperor humiliated him in front of Guiliman and his entire legion, he had a crisis of faith. He then went on the pilgramage, as he saw similarities between the old faith of his homewrold and the many religions his legion had subjugated on the Crusade. It led him to Cadia at the mouth of the EOT. Then he was persuaded through various visions and messengers that the Chaos Gods were the Gods worthy of his faith.

Umm. Spoiler tags? Geeze. Some people might not have read First Heretic.

FlammingGaunt wrote:Well this wouldn't be the only thing the emperor screwed up. *cough* Magnus and thousand Sons*cough*

He didn't techniaclly screw that up. Think about it, lets say you and your best friend travelled around the world and in that process you each saved each others lives. Now when you get home one of your other close friends, but not your best, starts getting into some weird stuff that you don't like (cocaine for example) and tells you that your best friend, who saved your life, is plotting to kill you and all that you represent. Whould you believe him or go kick his butt?

actually what happened was this.


Magnus told the Emperor about Horus.

Emperor got mad about how Magnus told him(and broke the Emperor's Webway gate)

Emperor(foolishly) told Horus to tell Russ to bring Magnus to Terra for a little talk.

Horus told Russ the Emperor wanted him to kill Magnus and the Thousand Sons.


so Horus actually lied so he could try and get rid of a loyal legion and/or turn them to his cause(a little of both happened)

Did the Emperor give Horus this opportunity to get rid of the Thousand Sons to test Magnus' claims?

Did Horus know what Magnus had told the Emperor? Educated guess? Chaos god intel?

Is Russ that much of a moron that he didn't know he was being used?

Why did the Thousand Sons help Horus during the seige of Terra?

So many questions!

the Thousand sons didn't know that Russ was tricked. thats why they aided the Traitors during the Seige.


Horus MIGHT have known about Magnus's message, but most likely not the content.


There are hints that Russ had helped get rid of the other 2 Primarchs before. He would have seen this as another Legion being erased from existance.

@ Grey Templar, Below is spoilers for Prospero Burns

Magnus knew the Space Wolves were coming and knew exactly what they would do of The Thousands Sons didn't come willingly. It's not as if he locked himself in the tower and was oblivious to the outside world for a few days, he chose not to fight so Russ would punish him. The first few HH novels only painted a picture of a compassionate Emperor, but Prospero Burns and First Heretic give a more sinister image to him. Ultimately it was the Emperor who was to blame for the betrayal of many of the Primarchs. He let Angron's gladiators die, instead of sending troops to save them, forever earning his resentment. He sent Russ to basically punish Magnus and told the Thousand Sons to stop using their powers, again earning the resentment of an entire Legion. Then he humiliated Lorgar and World Bearers, earning their resentment. Then he basically caused the HH itself by earning the resentment of Horus, his favoured son. I'm not great with Iron Warriors fluff, but if I recall correctly he made the Iron Warriors into a siege and garrison force, splitting them up and earning their resentment. So that's four Legions that the Emperor peed off. If he hadnt peed off Horus at the start, then the whole Heresy would have been prevented. Failing that then he could have given Horus a smaller force to betray him with and attack the Palace.

I think it was a combination of wanting to be punished and being torn by indecision about where to go next. But yeah, I mostly agree.

pretre wrote:I think it was a combination of wanting to be punished and being torn by indecision about where to go next. But yeah, I mostly agree.

Thats probably a better conclusion to draw, thinking about it a bit more, I doubt Magnus WANTED Russ to kill his sons, but he felt so bad after what he saw as betraying the Emperor that he felt the need to be punished but was torn between his loyalty to his fathers or his sons.

We can all agree that what he should have done was...

- Gotten all of the ale and food that he could find together.
- Told all of the sons that they won a sweepstakes contest with a free trip to Terra.
- Contacted Russ as soon as he entered the system and tell him that the Sons have every intention of coming peacefull provided the Wolves join them in a celebration.
- Throw a huge party for the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves so they could all have a good ol' time.
- Packed up and headed to Terra to take his lickings.
- Magnus gets the throne. Sons get to be the founders of the GK with Garro.
- They live happily ever after


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I wonder if it's possible for a Primarch to get drunk? Russ's drunken admissions that Magnus is his favourite brother.

iproxtaco wrote:I wonder if it's possible for a Primarch to get drunk? Russ's drunken admissions that Magnus is his favourite brother.

SM can get drunk and if any primarch is gonna get drunk it'll be Russ...

Russ did get drunk on many occasions, at one point he hurled the weapon crafted for him by a brother Primarch at the moon, his Primarch strength meant that it took several days for the Space Wolves to find it again since it had travelled so far.