Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Played a game vs some blood angels yesterday and the opposing player had a squad of death company w/ Astorath the Grim attached. I had moved on of my devil fish next to the unit so that I would pull them away from me so my crisis suits could get close enough to double tap plasma into the DC. After shooting I jumped back the suits and the devilfish was now closer to the DC. In my opponents movement phase he then moved the DC towards the fish and seperated Astorath from the DC to close in and charge my suit squad. My question is; since rage affects a unit, can an attached IC actually leave the unit? I would think they would follow the same rules as the raged unit so moving in such a way as to put them more than 2" would be impossible.

Second and somewhat related question. Is a unit w/ rage allowed to divert around terrain to avoid having to roll difficult or dangerous terrain tests? Ie. they would still be heading towards the closest enemy unit but not by the most direct route?

We ended up just letting him separate the IC and he went on to charge a crisis suit squad. He inflicted 2 wounds with his power axe (I put one on the squad leader and 1 on the generic suits) My initiative then came around and I inflicted 2 wounds with the suits. He fails a 2+ save. Then my 2 shield drones attack, inflicting a single wound, which is failed as well killing Astorath. Crisis suits win combat (Astorath had taken a wound earlier when he tried to soak some of the plasma fire from the suit squad earlier).

There are two camps regarding how Rage works in detail:

1) The Rage unit has to end up as close as possible to the enemy unit.

This means that as long as the closest distance between the two units (which is all you care about according to the first few pages of the rulebook) becomes as short as possible, you're free to move each model within the unit as you see fit. This not only benefits you by allowing you to spread towards another unit to assault (NOTE: you don't have to assault the unit that you are closest to), but it is also practical as it allows you to spread out for blast markers/templates.

2) Each and every model must move toward the enemy unit.

This means that every model goes the same direction, and you are not free to spread out. Since I don't take this position and don't support it at all, I'm not sure how to explain it any further.

Depending on which way you interpret Rage will help to figure out the answer to your first question. If it is 2 then most certainly not. If it is 1, then the only model that truly matters is the one closest to the enemy. Since each individual model is free to move as they wish, the IC can follow his normal rules allowing him to leave coherency.

As for your second question, the rules don't say that they have to take a straight path, but it could be argued they aren't moving "as fast as possible" by going around terrain. I believe straight path may be necessary.

You could also play it like this. The entire Death Company squad moves first, moving their 6" towards the closest enemy unit (And in this regard I have to say they must move directly. The shortest distance from A - B is a straigh line, not out and around and towards. The reason for this is quite simple, as they move 'around' towards the closest unit, something else can become closest could it not? Unless there is impassible terrain or another friendly unit, they must move in a B - line towards the unit they're supposed to attack. (Spreading out sounds fine, just as long as they're not totally flying off the handle.

As for Astorath, once the Death company has moved their 6" he'll be more then 2" away, meaning that he is now broken off for all intents and purposes. He's an IC and can do as he wishes as he's not affected by the Rage.

I suppose it really comes down to a judgment call. Personally I would allow my opponent to break Astorath off simply because he's an IC and has the right per the rulebook to move away, but then again, I dislike arguing over such things and might not have the strongest opinion on it.

Matt1785 wrote:

As for Astorath, once the Death company has moved their 6" he'll be more then 2" away, meaning that he is now broken off for all intents and purposes. He's an IC and can do as he wishes as he's not affected by the Rage.

I suppose it really comes down to a judgment call. Personally I would allow my opponent to break Astorath off simply because he's an IC and has the right per the rulebook to move away, but then again, I dislike arguing over such things and might not have the strongest opinion on it.

The only way for an IC to leave a unit is for the IC to move away themselves. A unit cannot walk away from an IC. Page 48, bullet 4.

The squad and IC form a single movement and must move at the same time. They are all bound by the constraints of rage.

If they can move in such a way that astorath obeys the Rage USR and ends up out of coherency then he is no longer joined to the unit. It is possible but requires intervening models or terrain to do.

An IC does not gain the rage rule so he is not subject to its effects. When an independent character joins a unit, it might
have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the ‘stubborn’ special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. pg48

So the IC has to only move beyond coherency to leave the unit and the unit would proceed on its own.

==================================================================

however heres another problem with rage... which takes priority? rage or coherency??

Same situation. An IC is in a unit with rage. If I just leave the character standing where he is, can he be used to "anchor" the unit with rage? Rage tells me I must move directly toward the closest enemy, coherency tells me to keep them within 2". Does coherency override rage or do the models simply move away from the IC thus leaving the IC on his own? Or does the game break.

Plus there's all the shenanigs that can be played with the rage rule in itself.

Needless to say , I dont like rage. Its to vaugly written and can be argued multiple ways.

While the independent character might not gain rage. Is does fall under it's effects. Rage says the UNIT must move towards the closest enemy. This would be in the same manner that a IC attached to a unit with stealth would gain the benefit of its coversave enhancement even though the IC himself doesn't have the rule.

Thaylen wrote:While the independent character might not gain rage. Is does fall under it's effects. This would be in the same manner that a IC attached to a unit with stealth would gain the benefit of its coversave enhancement even though the IC himself doesn't have the rule.

No, the unit is effected by rage, not the IC.
When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in he ‘stubborn’ special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. pg48

It does not say anything about what happens to the unit or the IC ,.. gaining ..losing.. in the rage section we olny have whats listed above.

Thaylen wrote:Rage says the UNIT must move towards the closest enemy.

So the Unit has rage, the IC does not. And.. An independent character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it. pg 48.

so i declare im moving a unit with rage.
I move model A. 6" toward closest enemy.
I move model B 6" toward closest enemy.
I move model C. 6" toward closest enemy.
I am moving the IC. I move my IC 6" the other direction.. because "the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the character"

I hope they clear this up in 6th ed or a FAQ, and add a blurb to rage and IC's. If the unit loses rage, or the IC gains it.. And then how to properly move raging units.

Well, a Unit's "Hammerhand" in the Grey Knight codex includes the IC, so from that we can conclude that an IC is a "model" in the greater "Unit."

So even if the IC does not have Rage, he must conform to the "unit's" movement, unless he is DECLARED to be detaching BEFORE movement, in which case you can leave him behind (in my book).

Unit1126PLL wrote:So even if the IC does not have Rage, he must conform to the "unit's" movement, unless he is DECLARED to be detaching BEFORE movement, in which case you can leave him behind (in my book).

There is no "declaring" (that would simplify matters considerably).

The real crux of this is that the process of IC's leaving units is very poorly defined. The rules are too vague for situations where compulsory movement is in force.