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Wow.

You have to put [/spoiler] at the end. But yeah, it's pretty stupid and far fetched for even 40k

Done, Thanks!

Yeah Chaos isn't half as demented as the "loyalist". One day they will learn that the Emperor is a god of madness and unneeded sacrifice. More biomass goes into making Grey knights than tyranids.

It's more a case of lives=time and in the Imperium lives are the most plentiful resource they have...
The Imperium is on a downward swing and the longer they can prevent it the longer they have to shore up their defences or perfect an experimental weapon (though that may take a few centuries)
It is the same as a guardsmen dying in a war but in this case they aren't directly fighting.

Except for the fact that a guardsman may have a .00000000001 chance to survive, but theses people are not even given that chance. They drag people off the street and stab them in the neck to consecrate 1 round?

Sacraficing 20,000 people in battle or millions with exterminatus is a far cry from preforming some vile sorcery for one stinking round.

How many are sacraficed each day to the Golden Throne? I think that is much less than what the GK go through. I know with M-249, I could go through 1200 rounds easy in a day.

I think that if the big E did wake up, the first ass's to be kicked would be Ordo Malleus and GK for this perversion.

Where is this short story?

Victories of the Space Marines, if I recall correctly. Currently being tortured with easy listening music from the late 70's to early 80's music while in the midst of a bad cold so my memory might be fuzzy.

Kvalulf wrote:Except for the fact that a guardsman may have a .00000000001 chance to survive, but theses people are not even given that chance. They drag people off the street and stab them in the neck to consecrate 1 round?

Sacraficing 20,000 people in battle or millions with exterminatus is a far cry from preforming some vile sorcery for one stinking round.

How many are sacraficed each day to the Golden Throne? I think that is much less than what the GK go through. I know with M-249, I could go through 1200 rounds easy in a day.

I think that if the big E did wake up, the first ass's to be kicked would be Ordo Malleus and GK for this perversion.

The Golden Throne is necessary.
The ammo is necessary.
These people may not have a choice but if they were given the choice and told about how many people would die if they said no i'm pretty damn sure they would say yes.
It is a necessary evil. Humanity will survive or at the least put off it's destruction and it will buy that with the blood of its people willing or not. As the Tau say, It's for the Greater Good.

So is there now a lot of blood sorcery in 40K? What with the blood of the Sisters of Battle protecting Grey Knights from the Bloodtide and this? Is there any explanation as to why or how it works and is beneficial?

purplefood wrote:These people may not have a choice but if they were given the choice and told about how many people would die if they said no i'm pretty damn sure they would say yes.

I'm not going to quote numbers because to be honest, they're so big that they're really kinda meaningless to most people but the Imperium has A LOT of people in it. Killing off 10 to keep 100 alive is considered morally appropriate. That same logic applies when its far bigger numbers on either side of the equation.

Kvalulf wrote:Except for the fact that a guardsman may have a .00000000001 chance to survive, but theses people are not even given that chance. They drag people off the street and stab them in the neck to consecrate 1 round?

Sacraficing 20,000 people in battle or millions with exterminatus is a far cry from preforming some vile sorcery for one stinking round.

How many are sacraficed each day to the Golden Throne? I think that is much less than what the GK go through. I know with M-249, I could go through 1200 rounds easy in a day.

I think that if the big E did wake up, the first ass's to be kicked would be Ordo Malleus and GK for this perversion.

The Emperor gave the Grey Knights all their weaponry, and their key tenants, one of which is to try and remain secret. So....yeah, he'd come back and say 'wow, it took a lot but, well done my sons, you did you're job well'. 0.0000000001 chance to survive? That's an absolute right? It think its a good deal higher than that. I'm going to say a lot about how the IoM is hige with near unlimated lives to spend, but with hundreds of billions of Guard all having a 0.0000000001% chance to survive would bleed the IoM dry fairly soon after that. I agrre that Guardmens chances of surviving a life of soldiering are against him, there would be nearly no men able to continue the reproductive cycle if they were all needed to fight.

This point has been argued extensively in other threads but if needs must. Everything the Grey Knights do, that's killing of Guard, civilians, other servants of the Imperium is all expendable, On a day to day basis, the main problems the IoM face are, traitors, Orks and Chaos incursions. Chaos is by a long shot the biggest of those threats. You're talking about a force that's tears holes in reality, that sees through time and space, that has minions who the ordinary man cannot kill, who can slaughter uncountable thousands of said ordinary men for its simple enjoyment. The Grey Knights are only a couple of thousand warriors defending a realm of billions of planets. The ordinary man is expendable. Billions die every day from every conceivable cause, and they are replaced as soon as they die, with more to spare. A few thousand to power a weapon that can same billions is not even a blip on the radar. The threat posed by Chaos is so great that the general populace cannot be allowed to know its full capacity, that their greatest defence has to be kept secret lest they go crazy with fear and despair, causing the Imperium to crumble. At a moments notice if the Chaos Gods decided to have some fun, they could tell Abaddon to unite the Primarchs, and they could tell the Primarchs to unite with Abaddon. Bang, huge nearly unstoppable force, they threw together on a whim. Is it not wise then to give the IoM's only true defence every weapon they need to defeat this foe? I really hop that this now doesn't devolve into another 'ridiculous Grey Knight fluff omg!' thread. I'd advise all those riding the Bandwagon to read the codex, it's actually a great read, barring a few places but they that aren't key to the background. I've read a fair few codices and the Grey Knights is one of those that has made me want to collect their respective army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:So is there now a lot of blood sorcery in 40K? What with the blood of the Sisters of Battle protecting Grey Knights from the Bloodtide and this? Is there any explanation as to why or how it works and is beneficial?

Read posts from previous threads, or better yet, READ THE CODEX.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

minigun762 wrote:

purplefood wrote:These people may not have a choice but if they were given the choice and told about how many people would die if they said no i'm pretty damn sure they would say yes.

Spoiler:

In the story that is pretty much what happens, at least in part.

I'm not going to quote numbers because to be honest, they're so big that they're really kinda meaningless to most people but the Imperium has A LOT of people in it. Killing off 10 to keep 100 alive is considered morally appropriate. That same logic applies when its far bigger numbers on either side of the equation.

Exactly! 10,000 to save a billion? With numbers so massive and with resources so huge being controlled by so few, it almost goes down to simple economics with lives.

Yes, the Golden Throne is necessary. Thats a given, the Imperium of man cannot function without it.

But one innocent life for a bullet? They were not grabbing convicts or heretics or mutants or xenos for this. In fact, when the guy attempts to escape, the cardinal threatens to have his girlfriend/wife/lover/whathaveyou take his place. It reeks of the foulest kind of evil.

How many innocents are murdered so these "incorruptibles" can "protect" mankind from Chaos?

I think if other Astartes chapters heard of this, there would be hell to pay.

"For the Emperor, and his people" I imagine you would be hard pressed to convince the Salamanders that this is not evil. Can you imagine what the Space Wolves would say?

It seems that to combat Chaos, they are becoming Chaos. The Thousand Sons thought as the GK do know. That they can control and use Chaos to protect mankind. We know how that went. I can't help but think of Gandalf being offered the ring in the Fellowship movie and how that is corrupting whomever is a the top of this tragedy.

Kvalulf wrote:
I think if other Astartes chapters heard of this, there would be hell to pay.

"For the Emperor, and his people" I imagine you would be hard pressed to convince the Salamanders that this is not evil. Can you imagine what the Space Wolves would say?

I wouldn't agree with that statement. Remember that Astartes themselves have little feeling about killing innocents if it was mandated by their leadership or the particulars of war demanded it. There is a spectrum of feelings within the Space Marines to be sure, some are much more humanitarian whereas others have outright hatred for the weak humans they are supposed to protect but the overall consensus is that if Billy the dock worker has to die to protect this hive world, well poor Billy is going to eat it.

In addition, remember that Space Marines also kidnap, torture and kill off fairly large quantities of people all in the attempt to bolster their own numbers as few of the initiates are selected to start the process of becoming a Space Marine, much less actually making it.

The Imperium, as a whole, is big on the idea that the ends justify the means.

EDIT: Yay, 1000th post here on Dakka!

There is a big difference here. There is sacrifice, and then there is Sacrifice. Who are they feeding the people to make magic bullets? The big E? The guy who sends his son to kill his other son for using sorcery?

You read about the need for the warp travel, else entire sectors starve, why not adopt a modest proposal, and simply go soylent green?

Where is the line? If I were a chaos minion, I would be laughing hysterically about this.

In order to protect us from them, we will become exactly like them, there by preventing them from taking over because we are already them.

Kvalulf wrote:There is a big difference here. There is sacrifice, and then there is Sacrifice. Who are they feeding the people to make magic bullets? The big E? The guy who sends his son to kill his other son for using sorcery?

You read about the need for the warp travel, else entire sectors starve, why not adopt a modest proposal, and simply go soylent green?

Where is the line? If I were a chaos minion, I would be laughing hysterically about this.

In order to protect us from them, we will become exactly like them, there by preventing them from taking over because we are already them.

There isn't just black and white... there is grey bits in between
Hell there isn't even white. It's all grey and black.
The Imperium is in a place where it literally cannot fight the enemy without lives being sacrificed at almost every corner.
Warp travel, ammo, vehicles and weapons. Almost everything costs lives in one way or another...
War travel needs the sacrifices of psykers to power the astronomicon.
Making ammo, vehicles and guns probably kills people through pollution as well as industrial accidents.
There isn't a better way, this needs to be done. In it's most extreme example the GK need to be the best they can to fight and win against daemons... some of the times they don't even win and that's even after they have every possible advantage that humanity can give them.

If you made sectors self-sufficient why would they stay in the Imperium? Why not simply stop sending their sons and daughters to die in far off wars for a god/man they have never seen?
By forcing a reliance upon other sectors and planets the Imperium keeps itself together, this is a massive weakness but it is the only way to do it.

I guess the I wasn't clear enough about "A Modest Proposal". Johnathan Swift solved the overpopulatoin/hunger problem quite a while ago. Why not adopt this to the imperium as welll? It is apparentlly ok to steal their souls to power the equipment, why not use their bodies for nutrion as well? A little salt and pepper, and long pig pork chops for all. Perhaps some suckling babes for the cardinal and hs retinue?

Another thing I am not communicating clearly enough is this use of sorcery, Relictor, Grey Knight, Thousand Son. Where is the difference? Good intentions all around, but we know what paves the road to the great ocean.

Some say that is the price to pay for keeping the imperium safe. Murder a few innocents. Why stop at one per bullet? Why just one ship load for the armor? Why not a city? A hive? A whole planet for that matter? More power is better, right? Why don't we burn the galaxy?

Magnus thought he was the master of Chaos as well.

Wrong forum. Moving to Dakka Fiction.

mod edit: moving back to 40k background

Kilkrazy wrote:Wrong forum. Moving to Dakka Fiction.

It was in the right forum, it was discussing about the Grey Knights I believe.

Kvalulf wrote:I guess the I wasn't clear enough about "A Modest Proposal". Johnathan Swift solved the overpopulatoin/hunger problem quite a while ago. Why not adopt this to the imperium as welll? It is apparentlly ok to steal their souls to power the equipment, why not use their bodies for nutrion as well? A little salt and pepper, and long pig pork chops for all. Perhaps some suckling babes for the cardinal and hs retinue?

Another thing I am not communicating clearly enough is this use of sorcery, Relictor, Grey Knight, Thousand Son. Where is the difference? Good intentions all around, but we know what paves the road to the great ocean.

Some say that is the price to pay for keeping the imperium safe. Murder a few innocents. Why stop at one per bullet? Why just one ship load for the armor? Why not a city? A hive? A whole planet for that matter? More power is better, right? Why don't we burn the galaxy?

Magnus thought he was the master of Chaos as well.

its not 'ok' its nessecary. If there was a better way, the Imperium would use it, but there isn't and the Grey Knights need all the weapons they can be given. And what does Jonathon Swift have to do with 40k? That was an entirely fictional and satrical, it wasn't a serious solution to overpopulation. It was a view that a generally immoral population would have to solve their problems. 90% of the IoM are ordinary people going about their lives unaware of what goes on to protect them. That 90% are moral people, not at all willing to eat their fellow man or give up their children for food.

And there's a massive difference between the Grey Knights and the Thousand Sons. The Sons used their powers with no care or thought for what they were doing. More over, they had no idea what Chaos was, and they thought they could control the Warp. The Grey Knights are the complete opposite. They have very strict control and thought for why they are using their powers. They know what Chaos is, they are fearful of the Warp and what enemies lie there. The Grey Knights do not think they can control the Warp. They have a measure of control over certain parts but they know that the very nature of the Warp is that is changes. The most important difference is that they have a very precise purpose in why they use 'sorcery'. Their duty to the Emperor and humanity gives them a point to use the Warp whereas the Sons used it because they could.

Well because it's not needed. The ammo needs one human innocent soul. What use would they put a whole ship load to? There is nothing that needs so many people to make it more powerful.

And no, Magnus did not think he could control Chaos. Learn about what you're posting before you say it. Actually, dont post again until you read the Grey Knight codex and A Thousand Sons, or at least TRY to find out more information.

I have read A Thousand Sons. Magnus states "No power is beyond my understanding." to Mortarion at Ullanor. Page 265.

How are the Grey Knights serving the Emperor by blatantly disobeying his commandment at Nikea? Read page 355 and 356 of A Thousand Sons, and find the part in the 2nd paragraph that says "Oh, except for the Grey Knights and Ordo Malleus. They get a pass." In fact, what he states is "Such things are not for lesser minds to know; no matter how powerful or knowledgeable they believe themselves to be."

And necessary? The White Scar took out Voldorius, The Soul Drinkers Took out V'Meth and Abraxes. I don't recall them sacrificing anyone.

I actaully just read this last night. It seems like they are really setting up the GK's to be the "black hat" good guys. We've been spoiled by Abnett's =I= but now we're getting a flavour of that organisation that doesn't taste quite as sweet.

Kvalulf wrote:I have read A Thousand Sons. Magnus states "No power is beyond my understanding." to Mortarion at Ullanor. Page 265.

How are the Grey Knights serving the Emperor by blatantly disobeying his commandment at Nikea? Read page 355 and 356 of A Thousand Sons, and find the part in the 2nd paragraph that says "Oh, except for the Grey Knights and Ordo Malleus. They get a pass." In fact, what he states is "Such things are not for lesser minds to know; no matter how powerful or knowledgeable they believe themselves to be."

And necessary? The White Scar took out Voldorius, The Soul Drinkers Took out V'Meth and Abraxes. I don't recall them sacrificing anyone.

Magnus does not think he can control Chaos. He think thinks that the powers of the Warp have no effect on him, and that he can 'fly' through it without fear. At that time, he has no idea Chaos even exists. At the end of the book he comes to realise that there are beings in the Warp more powerful than anything he thought possible.

The Emperor tried to keep the existence of Chaos from the entire Imperium, that's the Primarchs too. He sees the Thousand Sons and other Labrarians as straying too close to finding out about it with their practice of 'sorcery'. He instructed them to stop, which probably would have been successful if the Horus Heresy didn't happen.

When Horus betrayed him with the help of Chaos, Daemons and their masters were revealed to the Imperium, The Emperor created the Grey Knights to protect humanity. There's no point in trying to keep a secret that is not a secret to anyone. He also knew that the greatest weapon against it, is the Warp itself. The Grey Knights don't disobey Nikea, the Emperor gave them the HIS OWN FETHING GENESEED to use against Chaos. He gave them weapons, armour, knowledge, anything he could find to help them. READ THE GREY KNIGHT CODEX. I'm certain that he thought it was OK, after giving them some of his own genetic material to make them better psykers.

Three Daemons. The Grey Knights have banished uncounted numbers of similar and more powerful Daemons over 10,000 years. They do it everyday. I haven't read any of the books you got those examples from, but I can guess that it took great power and wasn't easy. I hope I dont have to go over the one life sacrificed to save 1,000,000?

You mean read the CSM codex right?

So this has been retconed out of the Grey Knights?

"Note that Grey Knights refuse to work and fight alongside Radical Inquisitors, that is, those Inquisitors who attempt to harness the power of Chaos in an attempt to defeat it." Grey Knight: Warhammer 40K wiki.

This thread is devolving into a grey knights discussion, which was not the intention.

I don't care if it was a story about the Ultramarines, SW, RG, IF or the rainbow brite super patrol.

If Jumbo the dock worker and 5 quadrillion people have to die to stop chaos forces from taking over a sector or planet due to military action or Exterminatus, so be it.


Kidnapping innocent people (your own people) off the street, and preforming Chaos rituals to to fight Chaos so you can save your people is just asinine. You are then doing the work of Chaos for it.

It isn't a chaos ritual...
Chaos rituals involve chaos powers which the don't try to harness or summon, in fact they do the opposite.
The people may be innocent but as i said before they would easily say yes if they knew what kind of sacrifice they were making.
Normal SM chapters don't do it because they either find it distastful/horrible or they simply don't need/know how to.

I really bet they would be willing.

Tell you what, if someone kidnaps you off the street and claims that you have to be sacraficed to stop a demonic invasion, are you going to go willingly? Doesn't the Inquisition keep the existence of Chaos and Demons from the average citizen? So when the grey robed crackpot snatches you, and tells you of the "super-secret U.N. Anti-Demon task force", the gray samurai, and that you have to be killed so they can use your blood, you'll just say ok since it is obviously for the greater good?

Not a Chaos ritual? I think the Blue Scribes of Tzeentch would disagree, as every spell contains a fragment of Tzeentch that they are trying to collect.

This whole I can use Chaos, cause I am immune to its effects smacks of self-delusional thinking. In fact this whole thing reeks as a plot of Tzeentch.

Me personally?
No. i wouldn't. But, i don't live in a universe that has a human empire spanning billions of lightyears and worships to the point of death an immortal god-emperor that has created an army of near immortal super beings.
You might think it is bad but 1 life in the grand scheme of things is nothing, billions die in the Imperium everyday for less.
It isn't a chaos ritual because it doesn't nvolve using chaos.
If they summoned a daemon and trapped it inside the armour or something then it would be a chaos ritual. It also isn't sorcery so spells have nothing to do with it...
And they aren't immune, not totally they take very stringent measures to make sure they stay pure and if one of them was going to be corrupted he would probably shoot himself first.