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Hey there, this is one of my first attempts at an Eldar list, could everyone who visits try to comment usefully because I really need the help. Tnx

[HQ]
Autarch: 115
-warp jump generator
-mandiblasters
-power weapon/scorpion chainsword+death spinner (have not decided)

[Troops]
10 Dire Avengers: 162
-Exarch w/ power weapon + shimmer shield
- bladestorm

10 Dire Avengers: 162
-Exarch w/ power weapon + shimmer shield
- bladestorm

10 Guardians: 100
-Eldar missile launcher

[Fast Attack]
6 Warp Spiders: 159
-Exarch w/ power blades + 2 death spinners

[Elites]
6 Fire Dragons:131
-Exarch w/firepike
-Tank Hunters

[Heavy Support]
Falcon: 175
-scatter laser
-shuriken cannon
-holofields'

Total: 1004 pts

Okay so the Guardians are mainly to secure a home objective (if I have one). The Dire Avengers advance up the field providing anti-infantry support while the Warp Spiders deep strike and attack anything tough with my Autarch. The Fire Dragons are in the Falcon and they go hunt tanks or MCs. Please comment, I need feedback.

Ack! *splutter* Gaurdians? If your atking Guardians, give them a warlock with conceal. They die really easy otehrwise, take it from 9 years of experience. Wy if you were a veteran eldar player i'd have to slap you.

However, as your not, mistakes are acceptable. So no worries, I'm here to help.

better than them, Drop the guardians completely, as well as 1 fire dragon and the WJG on the autarch- he'll be moving too fast on his own otehrwise and will get swarmed. Put him in the Falcon with the 5 Dragons.

With the 141 pointrs remaining, take a unit of 5 ranger Pathfinders. They are ridicoulously good at holding objectives, or sniping from heavy cover. They get a 2+ cover save in the ruins. (and with a bit of luck, they can do anything, i've beaten Deathleaper in CC with 3 of them.) And the remaining 21 points an be used to give your falcon Vectored engines, to prevent Immobilisation Crashes.

This list, with my suggested mods, will probably decimate everything in the way.

Diagnosis:
Footslogging Dire Avengers: no.
Very low on Antitank ability: no.
No Psykic protection: no.

Do you have any wave serpents? Dire Avengers without serpents are sitting ducks. Also, if they are on foot, it's best not to bladestorm as they can fire every turn 4 shots each every 2 turns instead of 3 shots each every 2 turns. You really don't want them on foot though. They are squishy and die easily.

Tank hunters is usually not necessary for fire dragons either. They do their job just fine without it. The firepike exarch isn't really necessary at all for what they need to do. Firepike is so-so for increasing their threat range, but if they are riding in the falcon, they should be able to get close enough without it.

If you have the means, a farseer with runes of warding can save you a lot of headaches and is usually the go-to HQ for low points Eldar since one enemy psyker can really ruin your day. Doom is a great power to combine with a wave of bladestorming avengers hopping out of serpents. He costs 20 points less than your Autarch, who is nice for reserves rolls, but footslogging Eldar in reserves is not a good thing to do anyway as they arrive just fast enough to be picked off a piece at a time and have short range and loads of ground to cover.

So if you don't have the models, I can't help you, but if you could squeeze out 200 points for a pair of Wave Serpents to put your Avengers in, it would be a tremendous boost to your army. Even better if you could manage 240 points so they can each have twin linked EML instead of twin linked shuricannon. Other than the Fire Dragons (who will be the priority target for any opponent who is not completely hopeless) you really don't have any good antitank. Guardian weapon platform doesn't count because they can't reliably shoot straight without a scatterlaser.

save 20 by switching the autarch for a doomseer with ward runes.

save 51 points by dropping the fire dragon exarch altogether. (They don't need tankhunters, and if they are riding in style with the Falcon limo, they can get close enough anyway so you don't need his threat range)

save 20 points by switching the shimmershields on your avengers for extra catapults. Resist the temptation to try and turn them into a cc unit. It won't work well.

save 10 points by dropping the powerblades from your Warp Spiders. If you are in close combat with them, you are doing it wrong.

Actually, just drop the warp spiders altogether if you aren't aesthetically attached to them. They are cool, but they are a pricey chunk for a 1000 point list.

Your Falcon doesn't need that many guns as it is primarily a ride for the Fire Dragons. If it is always on the move (which it should be) it will only be firing 1 gun anyway, which should be the pulse laser. Downgrade the scatterlaser to a simple shuricannon, the shorter range won't be a problem since you are moving close enough for the dragons anyway. The hull mount shuricannon is also a bit of overpriced fat that can be trimmed. By doing this, you can add a much needed embolden warlock for your guardians. It is better than conceal IMO as a cover save is easy enough to find anyway, but Guardians are hard to keep from running away when they get shot at.

95 HQ: Farseer, runes of warding, doom

152 TR: Avengers (10), exarch, bladestorm, extra shuricat
152 TR: Avengers (10), exarch, bladestorm, extra shuricat
130 TR: Guardians (10), Missile, +Warlock (embolden)

80 EL: Dragons (5)

155 HS: Falcon, holofields, shuricannon

120 DT: Serpent (Avengers), TL Missile
120 DT: Serpent (Avengers), TL Missile
-----
1004
------

(I would drop one of the extra catapults on an Avenger Exarch to get just below 1000, rather than just above it too, but since you made a 1004 point army, I was guessing that didn't matter to you)

Should you decide to keep your warp spiders, it is possible to lose the Guardians+Warlock instead (-130), drop the extra shuricats on the Avenger exarchs (-10) and have 140 points. That can get 5 of them with the exarch, almost get all 6 if you rearrange more fat trimmed off here and there.

ok... here goes

I say this a lot, but NEVER EVER run fire dragons in falcons.

That said I recognize that it is very easy to be fooled by the carrying capacity. However the Falcon grav tank plays an extremely different role than Fire Dragons.

The role of fire dragons, is to fly into the heart of the enemy early on, and nuke a centerpiece of his army, this includes a land raider carrying TH/SS termies, or a battle wagon full of nobs, etc. Often times this leaves the dragons and their tank in the middle of kill range for your opponent.

The role of a Falcon is to make use of its heavy weapons, and transport ability to take a min squad of Dire Avengers, then sit on an objective, and provide long range fire support. This is emphasized by it having 2-3 heavy weapons.

Consider this, if you move a Falcon 12 inches, it can only fire a single gun, at bs3. If you move a wave serpent 12 inches, it can fire its single turret twin linked at full effectiveness. This is infinitely better. Further a wave serpent with a tl shuri cannon costs only 100 points (110 with spirit stones). You feel much better about losing it than an expensive ~180 point falcon.

Further a Wave Serpent's special rules are actually tailored for carrying fire dragons into the fray. The energy field rule protects it against close range anti tank- such as melta guns and rending weapons. On the other hand, the Falcon is no better at taking close range fire power than it is at taking long range fire power.

these units are an awful mix, and create huge point inefficiencies in your list.

the list posted by Guitardian is a significant improvement- with the exception of the dragons in falcons.

Ironically Grigger's proposed changes will still result "in getting decimated by everyone in the way"
I feel the need to respond directly Kaptain Grigger's suggestion of using pathfinders, as bringing those outcasts into your list is a trap and WILL make your list weaker just by including them.

Lets talk about Pathfinders / Rangers, because on paper they look great. So you've got a 2+ cover save and super sniper rifles, ap1 on a roll to hit of a 5+, and all the benefits of rending. But even if their sniper rifles are super, they are still sniper rifles. Low volume of fire, low damage against most targets. You only have 1 shot per model, you'll always require a 3+ to hit and then a 4+ to wound, this reduces their damage potential greatly.

Then you get to their price tag... 24 points per model!?! Putting this many points into sniper rifles is a bad idea in any list. With Cover Saves as prevalent as they are, and heavier weapons such as the scatter laser being more effective against MCs and Tanks. Pathfinders really cannot justify their cost. This frustration is compiled by their low speed. Any attack which ignores cover- be it from a Thunder fire cannon or a flame template will obliterate them. And they have 0 assault capability which means they'll get tooled out by any fast assault unit. Unfortunately for rangers these types of units are more common then they've ever been.

Essentially you have a unit which costs a lot of points, has a low damage output, is too slow to get out of harms way and weak to a large part of today's metagame. Ouch. These faults outweigh whatever advantage a 2+ cover save and possibly ap1 sniper rifles have.

Interestingly Guardians are one of the only viable Eldar Troops outside of a Wave Serpent.

You gotta decide, do you want to go foot or mech?

If you want to go foot- you are doing it wrong. Dire Avengers need wave Serpents, Fire Dragons need a Wave Serpent. You need a farseer for phsycic defense and support. Autarch's can fit in mech anized lists, but they generally wont' show up until 1500+ where the master strategist rule has more effect.

Here would be a good 1000 point mech list.

Farseer-Both Runes, spirit stones, Doom, Guide

5 Dragons
Wave Serpent- tl shuri cannon

10 Dire Avengers- Exarch, bladestorm, 2 catapults
Wave Serpent- tl missile

5 Dire Avengers

6 Warp Spiders- exarch, 2 spinners, blades, withdraw

Falcon- missile, holofields

total:1001

If you have the models, you should drop out the warp spiders and runes of witnessing for 3 scatter laser war walkers (probably in 2 squads)


If you want to do a foot list, you absolutly require both a farseer and an avatar, as well as considerably more guardians, war walkers, and wraithlords. Here is a sample 1000 point foot list

(140) Farseer- Warding, Stones, Fortune, Guide
(155) Avatar

(120) 10 Guardians + Warlock- shuri cannon, conceal
(95) 10 Guardians- scatter laser
(95) 10 Guardians- scatter laser
(95) 10 Guardians- scatter laser

(140) Wraithlord- Bright Lance, Sword
(80) 2 War Walkers- 4x shuri cannons
(80) 2 War Walkers- 4x shuri cannons

Avatar makes everything fearless, the farseer keeps fortune on the Avatar, and guides whatever needs it most. The Guardians with the conceal lock spread out in front giving all the guardians behind them cover saves.

Yeah I agree with the falcon gunship rather than falcon limo philosopy too, (I haven't used a Falcon or a Vyper either, very much since 4th ed. myself - too nerfed as gunships now.) So I'm just trying to post a change with the minimum of extra models needed here. I think it's pretty agreed by all though, the most obvious improvement is to get some wave serpents in there.

Thanks so much guys, this is all extremely helpful, you have aided me so much with my army. I particularly like Guarditan's army list but there is one thing. I actually have 1 wave serpent I planned to modify to a Falcon so I will take a wave serpent as FD transport with tl shuriken cannon and take guardians out and get warp spiders. so it'll look like this

HQ
Farseer, runes of warding, doom: 95

152 TR: Avengers (10), exarch, bladestorm, extra shuricat
152 TR: Avengers (10), exarch, bladestorm, extra shuricat

Elites
80: Dragons (5)

Fast Attack
Warp Spiders: 167
-Exarch w/spinneret rifle
-Withdraw

120 DT: Serpent (Fire Dragons), TL Missile
120 DT: Serpent (Avengers), TL Missile
120 DT: Serpent (Avengers), TL Missile

So what do you think? I like it.

Agh... Why am the only person here who plays the same way i do? Rangers are great. They have never ever faied me, in all of 9 years of eldar gaming. untill recently, i only had 5.

The same goes with me and 'ard boyz. Everyone here hates them, and yet, 7 years of ork wargaming and my unit of 'ard boyz has never ever failed to do some damage- and 6/10 times, they've been my Boy'z of da match.

Well, personally I also love rangers. But by loving them, I mean the fluff and the fun ability to snipe stuff better than other races. However, they just don't have their place in the competitve world of today. 120 points for five range is just too much considering how much damage they do. In fun games, they are great to take. Sniping your friend's Terminator worlf lord in the head and killing him is very satisfying, but that will almost never happen in tournament games.

To conclude, until rangers have better rules, they're just for fun.

Lies! Heresy and Lies!

I always use them in tournament games. and they always come through for me. I ahve told the story before now of 3 of them taking out deathleaper in CC and surving a round with a Mawloc after. Now, either everyone's rangers hate them except mine, or you guys just won't give them a good chance. Maybe you don't fed them right. They have infiltrate. Set them up in your deployment zone (or just outside it) after everything is done. You have the advantage of placement then. thn just start cracking Small and Elite units whilst your Avengers and Banshees take ot the hordes.

Ack! Forget the spinneret rifle. Spiders are about S6. Exarch gives you moar S6 at higher BS for less than another spider. The rifle (in addition to being hard to model) doesn't help you here.

Withdraw is an interesting choice, but I'd take the power blades with it. Hiding the unit in an assault (which is what I'm assuming you intend to do) is all well and good, but if you don't get any kills you might get run down.

the new list looks pretty good . As you expand past 1000 points you should start looking to fill up your heavy support, those are where the really big guns are! I agree that 2 death spinners > the Spinneret rifle. I'd rather have 4 s6 shots then one ap1 one. I'd be hesitant to hide warp spiders in combat without an Autarch. They really don't generate any quality attacks on their own.

Rangers are really cool- aesthetically! I have 5 of them, I bought them because I thought they would be good- 2+ cover save and super sniper rifles looks really good.

Then I put them on the table and was consistently disappointed. Yea I know. Infiltrate + put them in cover in a good position on an objective.

They are still slow- infantry, no dedicated transport, can't move and shoot.
They are still expensive- 120 points for 5 bodies? They cost more than warp spiders!
They still have a low volume of shots: its only 1 dice per guy... you'll miss with a third, and half of those won't even wound.

This is not the edition for snipers. Once you try Guardian Jetbikes, I doubt you'll ever go back.

okay, no offense guys but could we please not talk about rangers, just about my army list. I know and I agree with no rangers. Thanks but more feed back please.

Warp spiders, as it has been said before actually, should take dual death spinners and powerblades if you have withdraw.

I used to play spinneret rifle all the time, but now I play dual spinners and it is much better.
Powerblades are wonderful. You charge in, do some damage, then withdraw. It's a great way to annoy your enemy and even cause a fair amount of damage. I executed a terminator captain that way once.

Conventional wisdom would suggest not using warp spiders as a CC unit at all. However I can't argue with anecdotal evidence. Only the exarch does anything useful, but still at s3 he's not great. Withdraw I would think is only there to get you out of combat if someone else charges, rather than as a harassment unit. Much better to use the shooting aspect of jump shoot jump.

Then again some find it hard to justify spiders in a 1000 pt list, let alone ever, so you might consider something else. Also, all this talk of highly competitive and so on, are you playing in a tournament? Do you want to show up at your FLGS and smash people into the ground, or does the appeal of a unit extend past its efficiency?

If you lean towards a more fluffy approach, or even anything less than WAAC, then there's no need to get too het up about how ruthless your list is. If that's what you want then there's some great advice on here as to what to do in that regard. If you're not sure, then try rangers before you avoid them, same with spiders. I will second the wave serpent bit though.

Your Conventional Wisdom- Reanimator is correct. Warp Spiders are a shooting unit first.

The purpose essentially of powered blades and withdraw is to aide in disrupting the back field. If your Warp Spiders have the opporunity to shoot then charge a backfield unit like lootaz, you have the potential to both have your spiders protected from enemy ranged shooting for a turn, AND you prevent the support unit from shooting. When you combine this with withdraw- you very rarely ever give up your shooting turns. Warp Spiders also have some of the heaviest armor available to Eldar. the 3+ comes in handy when you engage their prefered cc targets- support units with a low number of base attacks!

Still though, I don't usually run them unless I want a body guard for my Autarch, and thats not until around 2000 point games or so. In lower point games I think you should be more concerned with pure fire power- units like war walkers really shine in the 1000 and below world.

I'd not considered them for that sort of business, but put like that it makes sense. However they're obviously a finesse unit, and you're right to suggest that under 1000 they might be too big a risk.

Yeah you guys are right I think, warp spiders do look like they are for higher point lists. I have not bought the models and could easily get war walkers instead if you guys think that is better. My list is semi-competitive, I don't go in tournaments but when I play a casual game I like to have a list that has good prospects of winning. Which do you think I should take?

Looking at the second list, if you swap out the eml on one serpent for shiri cans, and drop the spiders, you should have just about enough for 3 war walkers with 2 scatter lasers each (180 points). That would be a pretty strong addition to a 1000 pt list. So much so that I might try a similar list myself.

Should be now:

Farseer, warding, doom

Da x 10, exarch, bs, +1 sc
Da x 10, exarch, bs, +1 sc
Both in ws, eml

Fire dragons x 5
Ws, shuri cans

War walker x 3, sl x 2

That looks very streamlined now. Be aware that the WarWalkers are almost as fire-and-forget as the fire dragons. They flank in, hopefully getting some good hail of flank shot dice, and they get bown to bits shortly afterwards as punishment for being slow, fragile, and dangerous.

Great, thank you guys for your helpful advice, umm if the dragons and the war walkers are both fire and forget, does this mean about half my army will be destroyed after destroying one target?

Also, I was wondering what to put in my 1500pt list and I was thinking of basically warp spiders, Autarch (in warp spiders), howling banshees in WS, maybe upgrading farseer (bike council?) and/or rangers(will test). Please let me know which units would be good. I have no actual formal list.

Suggestions for expanding...

Waithlords with a sword+heavy weapon combined with Guardians+heavy (or storm guardians) with a Warlock with Spiritseer upgrade are a pretty potent combination.

Three Dark Reapers with maybe an Exarch can be cool.

I play Harliquinns, and used right can be pretty potent. They are tricky to use though.

I vote Striking Scorpion on the Scorpion vs Banshee debate. If you go Banshees, you need a transport, period.

Jetbikes are not a terrible idea either.

That being said...

Key is this... if you expand your army, you need to increase the number of scoring units. Two scoring units will not work in a 1500pt army. One unit of Fire Dragons may not be enough either. Consider increasing your base units before adding exotic units like Banshees and Spiders. This does also mean more wave serpents, adding to their costs.

500pts could be 5 Dragons in a WS (200pts) and two 150pt Guardian squads with a platform and Warlock that sits on your home objectives. That might be far more useful than anything else.