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I believe that Orks are morally better than any race in 40k and even in real life seeing as a society they are completely stable and free. In fluff it has long been stated that Orks are free to become whatever they want and do whatever they want. Orks practice meritocracy as only the relatively smart, biggest and strongest Orks becomes boss and if he fails as a leader anyone can try and bring him down in order to replace him.

Orks can't help how they act they were created as weapons against the necrons so they do what is literally encoded into their dna to do which is make war. They don't care for democracy, fascism, communism or any governmental ideology created by humanity, all are inferior and worthy of contempt by the Orks. They don't care for civil liberties or self-destructive morality, Orks are Orks and thats that. They are the ultimate survivor warrior race, the greenskin barbarians might have even spread into other galaxies.

Even the Eldar or at least one eldar agrees with me. Who else agrees with me?

Statement made by Uthan the perverse: "The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn. And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude"

Orks in real life?

That aside, brutallity, slaughter, xenophobia and wanton warfare doesn't suddenly become morally superiour because it may or maynot be hard-coded in their genes. By that logic, Chaos Daemons would also be morally superiour.. they as well could not act other than they act because they are literally manifestations of the emotions they represent.

If an Ork rampages through a city, slaughtering women, civilians, children, bystanders and everything else with casual glee.. how is that better or morally different than a Necron, Chaos Space Marine or Dark Eldar doing the same? Morallity needs to be judged by the actions, not by the perpetrators own moral reasoning. If you go by the latter, there could be no moral wrong. Nearly every maniac, dictator, psychopath or murderer in history likely "good reasons" for what he did. What drives a person (or Alien) to immoral action is irrelevant.

Zweischneid wrote:Orks in real life?

That aside, brutallity, slaughter, xenophobia and wanton warfare doesn't suddenly become morally superiour because it may or maynot be hard-coded in their genes. By that logic, Chaos Daemons would also be morally superiour.. they as well could not act other than they act because they are literally manifestations of the emotions they represent.

If an Ork rampages through a city, slaughtering women, civilians, children, bystanders and everything else with casual glee.. how is that better or morally different than a Necron, Chaos Space Marine or Dark Eldar doing the same? Morallity needs to be judged by the actions, not by the perpetrators own moral reasoning. If you go by the latter, there could be no moral wrong. Nearly every maniac, dictator, psychopath or murderer in history likely "good reasons" for what he did. What drives a person (or Alien) to immoral action is irrelevant.

And morality is used to justify all sorts of evil and humanity barely even obeys its own morals. The Orks are not xenophobic, they don't hate anyone. They simply do what is expected of them. To an Ork their society is a utopia, they are free to be anything they want, do anything they want and vice versa. Ork society is perfect when compared to human society and will never actually die. Morality means nothing to an Ork, they never had empathy in the first place.

And morality is used to justify all sorts of evil and humanity barely even obeys its own morals. The Orks Nazis are not xenophobic, they don't hate anyone. They simply do what is expected of them. To an Ork a Nazi their society is a utopia, they are free to be anything they want, do anything they want and vice versa. OrkNazi society is perfect when compared to human society and will never actually die. Morality means nothing to an Orka Nazi, they never had empathy in the first place.

If you are talking about Orks with their fluff during 2nd edition, then I could start to agree, but with their post 2nd edition fluff abortion, I would have to say no.

Zweischneid wrote:And morality is used to justify all sorts of evil and humanity barely even obeys its own morals. The Orks Nazis are not xenophobic, they don't hate anyone. They simply do what is expected of them. To an Ork a Nazi their society is a utopia, they are free to be anything they want, do anything they want and vice versa. OrkNazi society is perfect when compared to human society and will never actually die. Morality means nothing to an Orka Nazi, they never had empathy in the first place.

Wow, you are actually calling Orks Nazis. I thought Imperium fulfilled that role. Read the fluff on Orks the Orks were created the way they are the didn't just decide one day to make war on the entire universe. I am not saying the Orks are angels but compared to anyone with a motive to be evil the Orks lack any motive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BuFFo wrote:If you are talking about Orks with their fluff during 2nd edition, then I could start to agree, but with their post 2nd edition fluff abortion, I would have to say no.

How so?

Honestly I find this mentality less relevant here than their actions.

Yes, the Orks don't really hate anyone and don't really have any agendas to spread. But they still purge entire systems, they still enslave entire worlds, and they still kill innocent people by the billions all because of bloodlust. They're a force of terror and disorder in the galaxy, and even Imperial domination is preferrable to Orkish.

I suppose this idea morality would be alright if you're looking at it from a social relativism standpoint... but even then nobody can be "morally" wrong.

Zweischneid wrote:And morality is used to justify all sorts of evil and humanity barely even obeys its own morals. The Orks Nazis are not xenophobic, they don't hate anyone. They simply do what is expected of them. To an Ork a Nazi their society is a utopia, they are free to be anything they want, do anything they want and vice versa. OrkNazi society is perfect when compared to human society and will never actually die. Morality means nothing to an Orka Nazi, they never had empathy in the first place.

You've got it wrong
Orks don't think, they act on instinct and do what they love
They are no more evil than a shark
They don't think about what they do, they don't understand its wrong and they never will
Its just not hard wired into them
Sure what they do is harmful, it destroys societies etc
But they aren't doing it because of a desire to dominate or control others, because of a sense of superiority or whatever motivates other people
They just do what they do because its all they know .

Comparing them to nazis honestly has to be the weirdest thing I've ever seen
Imperium= Nazis
orks aren't even close

Asuron wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:And morality is used to justify all sorts of evil and humanity barely even obeys its own morals. The Orks Nazis are not xenophobic, they don't hate anyone. They simply do what is expected of them. To an Ork a Nazi their society is a utopia, they are free to be anything they want, do anything they want and vice versa. OrkNazi society is perfect when compared to human society and will never actually die. Morality means nothing to an Orka Nazi, they never had empathy in the first place.

You've got it wrong
Orks don't think, they act on instinct and do what they love
They are no more evil than a shark
They don't think about what they do, they don't understand its wrong and they never will
Its just not hard wired into them
Sure what they do is harmful, it destroys societies etc
But they aren't doing it because of a desire to dominate or control others, because of a sense of superiority or whatever motivates other people
They just do what they do because its all they know .

Comparing them to nazis honestly has to be the weirdest thing I've ever seen
Imperium= Nazis
orks aren't even close

First, Orks very much like to dominate and control others. Look how they treat Grots.. or weaker Orks. They also have human slaves.

Second, the "hard-wired" argument is a rather slippery slope. Isn't it possibly just as much "human nature" to build hierarchies of power, discriminate against "others" and try to impose control over them?

Third, I wasn't making a specific Nazi-argument. If you don't like Nazi and want to keep it 40K.. replace the "Ork" in the quote above with .. say.. Chaos Space Marines.. or Daemons... or Dark Eldar. Point is, it doesn't change the meaning. Ergo, there is nothing "uniquely Orky" in the statement.. it applies literally to everyone; including many seen as "morally wrong" by a majority in today's society.

Forth, any half-way decent definition of morality (that I am aware of) that is not just a religion-derived list of dos and don'ts builds necessarly on the capacity to transend your base desires and biological urges and the ability to emphasise with others. If Orks are entirely incapable of that, than they would be less moral and more evil, than .. say.. Khorne Berzerkers or Dark Eldar Homonculi (or Nazis) who presumably retain shreds of these abilities (even if they do not act upon them).

Orks have to be the most innocent and naive race in 40K.

Orks fight because that is what they do. Yes they have some intelligence, but they were made to fight and fight is what they do.

Yes Orks kill millions and cause untold distress but in no more manner than mosquitos do. All the other races (not sure about Tyranids) cause just as much death but in a cold calculated way. In comparrison I see Orks as the only Good race in 40K.

Orks are evil by their nature. Orks do not make a conscious choice to be evil. Though they are capable of making decisions and independant choices, their cultural behavior is ingrained in their genetic structure. Wanton killing of innocents, slavery, torture, etc are all objectively evil acts which are part and parcel of ork kulture. Just because they, as individuals, aren't evil by choice, it doesn't mean that they aren't evil as a whole.

They are perhaps the perfect warrior race if they could be controlled (as they were in the past). They are more like a force of nature than a race, and need to be put down wherever they are found, for the good of everyone else.