Daemons: Nurgle DP vs Tzeentch DP

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**Paeern**

Hello All,

I have a DP that I need to paint up and I was trying to decide between MoN or MoT. Has anyone figured out the best DP for daemons?
This is a new army so any reasoning behind your preferences would be appreciated.

Thanks,

- P

**Hargus56**

Unless you are doing a themed army, I would just paint them up as undivided like this:

There are advantages too both nurgle and tzeentch, MoN would mean they would generally need an extra +1 on the dice roll to wound. While MoT gives you a +1 to your invulnerable save. I believe most people say MoN is better against small arms fire where MoT is better against things like power fists/klaws, melta/plasma weapons and other high S weapons. MoT also gives you access to 2 psychic powers, warptime is the MVP ability for all Daemon Princes but MoT could take it and Bolt of Change or for fun Gift of Chaos. Lash Princes are also very nice with MoS and Lash of Submission, this could pull an enemy closer to you or further away from a shooting unit that is fragile in CC.

**Mannahnin**

When comparing these two, Nurgle is superior 90%+ of the time. I've broken down the math at least three or four times in different threads.

Here's the short version:

Mannahnin wrote:I've done the math out. If you run the numbers for a DP being shot with a couple of meltaguns & some pistols, then charged by a squad of BA assault marines or SW GH, the Nurgle Prince comes out ahead of the Tzeentch prince. T6 makes more of a difference against all the S5 & S5 stuff than the extra pip of invulnerable save does against the meltas and fist. The Nurgle prince is even better if he doesn't get shot at first; if he gets the charge, for example, the benefit of T6 well outweighs the extra pip of save against the fist. Against a squad of Orks charging, it's not even close. A T5 prince usually dies the first round. A T6 prince fights for a couple of rounds and thins out the squad. He can often hold long enough for another CSM unit to come in and beat down the Orks.

The two are exactly equal in durability against plasma, unless the Nurgle prince is using cover, in which case he's better.

The only times the Tzeentch prince is better are generally when basically the entire unit attacking has nothing but S8+ attacks which ignore a 3+ armor save. Which DOES include some important and common units- SW ML LFs, IG Melta vets, SM TH&SS terminators. But IME you can very often get cover saves against the shooty ones, and the TH&SS terminators will beat either prince down, so there's no point pretending that the 4++ is going to save you from them.

Here's a long thread where I break down several situations, run the math for several enemy units, etc:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330496.page

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All that being said, IME the lash prince is even better, within the contexts of the lists I run. But he's not nearly as good in HtH or as survivable.

**Hargus56**

My mistake, I thought this was for CSM so forget the Lash stuff. My experience is a little low but I am liking Nurgle for the extra T as well as some of the useful and cheap abilities like Cloud of Flies which would help to negate furious charge for a cheap amount of points and Noxious Touch which would allow you to wound orks and space marines on 2s not 3s.

**Mannahnin**

Crap. My response was for Chaos Space Marines as well.

For CodexL Daemons it's a little trickier. I think Tzeentch actually comes out ahead, for two reasons. 1. You have no or almost no vehicles, so cover saves aren't as easily-available. 2. You have jack for shooting aside from Tzeentch units, and Princes can give you more Bolts to crack open enemy vehicles.

So overall I'd say Tzeentch with Codex: Daemons. If you want to make him a HtH unit, Nurgle is probably better, but most of your codex does HtH, and you need the extra shooting support.

**Paeern**

Thanks guys, I can still squeeze out ideas from your CSM suggestions along your thoughts on Daemon DP's

**bob the heretic**

Mark of Nurgle

**liam0404**

Agreed with Mannahnin - bolts of Tzeentch are precious resources in a CD army.

**terranarc**

Personally I've lost princes to bolter fire way more than I have to lascannons just because lascannons have to roll to hit.
If they're shooting your princes, they're not shooting your soulgrinders.

Now, if you're running fateweaver, I would say prince with MoT is good enough. That's like an invul save of 3.5 against everything which is pretty sweet. Also, I've never gotten my DPs into close combat unless it was a case where they were charged by ass termies. People just tend to run from them and I never give them wings because... c'mon its 60 freaking points. If I take 3 princes, that'd be 180 just for mobility. FFS thats a whole nother squad. So I always just run them with that double spell thing, gaze and bolt of change.

Its a bit expensive but I love getting side shots in and with that AP1, its like a meltagun.

Though in reality, I rarely take princes. 3 grinders FTFW!

**bagtagger**

if you run fate weaver, you want mot, but otherwise nurgle is better

**wisdomseyes1**

@Terranarc: There is no MC in the game with wings at less points save the daemon prince in CSM... and that is one of the things that CSM have that doesn't cost more than it is worth.

You said your daemon prince doesn't get into CC unless it gets charged by terminators? Wings allows you to move towards targets you want to fight and also stay away from targets you don't want to.

Topic: I am for the Tzeentch prince in all cases. Nurgle prince is cool with the T6... but that doesn't really help all that much... not for 30 points. 4++ save isn't all that great either, unless we are talking high strength weapons.

The bolt. Tzeentch can take it, nurgle can't. Actually, the nurgle prince is only really good upclose... so FLIGHT (It is not wings... you don't actually have to put wings on the model) becomes more necessary... the Tzeentch prince can be used from afar and upclose, wile still having a decent skill in close combat.

Tzeentch Prince with bolt and flight is how I run mine. Kind of pricey though... princes I don't take unless it is 1500 points or more. There are better options for the lower points levels...

**crazypsyko666**

It really depends on the core of your army build. Daemon Princes are like swiss army knives, stick whatever you need onto them. Think in opposites, too. Close Combat army? Think about ranged weapons. No anti-tank? A winged khornezilla could probably fix that, or some of the ranged weapons. I'd say that Nurgle is a tough anti-infantry unit, with the right power ups he's a high toughness CC monster wounding on a 3+.

Tzeentch, on the other hand is more based in ranged attacks, and while quite powerful, I think I'd rather take my soul grinder. Big and unwiedly, yes, but dangerous as hell.

**txscotch12**

It really depends on the core of your army build. Daemon Princes are like swiss army knives, stick whatever you need onto them.

This is the correct answer.

There are 2 major builds for daemon DPs. And one sorta fluffy but functional build. Then theres MoK which is um well useless.

Daemon DPs are not CSM DPs and should not drive the focus of your list but instead fill whatever hole is left after your HQ/elite choices have been made.

MoN DPs are amazing for anti-infantry including almost all of the assault troop choices. a MoN DP will suffer versus elite assault squads however as he only has a 5++. That being said he should put a large dent into whatever hes assaulting as long as the squad hes fighting is lower than I5.

A MoT DP is a solid platform for a bolt and can serve well as melee anti-tank if neccassary. A moT DP can also tie up walkers keeping them off your crushers and whatnot. With his lower S5 he probably wont one turn pop it he shouldnt take much damage either.

A MoS DP with lash is only really for a list with NO gernades anywhere. other than that hes pretty useless.

**wisdomseyes1**

MoK lets you take blessing... so if your only opponent is grey knights, that might come into play :-)

[sub]Don't take MoK...[/sub]

And... if you really want to take the slaanesh prince for lash... you confuse me. Why not just take a slaanesh herald... not 100 points for a really crappy version of lash.

**txscotch12**

well see the pretty useless comment and honestly it would only come into play if all ur HQ slots are taken.

**calypso2ts**

I take a MoS prince for...

I6 (ahead of most characters)
Access to Offensive/Defensive Grenades
Hit and Run <--This is the big one

Also, if you take Pavane on one, it does benefit from BS5 instead of 3 (or is it 4 for Heralds, I know Masque is 4).

I like to get stuck in with large squads that need multiple turns to tear down my prince and then Hit and Run out of combat to get to the soft backfield units that are so pesky (HWT, Lootas, Long Fangs, CCS, etc)

**txscotch12**

Hmmm well damn now I gotta proxy to give him a try.

**crazypsyko666**

txscotch12 wrote:MoN DPs are amazing for anti-infantry including almost all of the assault troop choices. a MoN DP will suffer versus elite assault squads however as he only has a 5++. That being said he should put a large dent into whatever hes assaulting as long as the squad hes fighting is lower than I5.

Funny what you say about the elites, because my MoN DP regularly beats down termies in CC, not to mention Nurgle CSM and other high T and high-cost/low-unit number units.

After dusting off my Daemons codex again, I'm convinced that Khornezillas are the best against Grey Knight armies for one reason: Blessing of the Blood god. It's five points, and it gives them a 2++ against ANY psychic power. This includes the Force Weapons every grey knight has, and IIRC, psybolt ammo (I don't know for sure, but that's the impression I get)