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Hi there!

this is my first 2k army list for CSM. I will be very glad with all your coments about it:

1 Daemon prince @ 155 Pts
Mark of Slaanesh; Wings; Whip

1 Daemon prince @ 175 Pts
Mark Nurgle; Wings; Time Warp

7 Berserkers de Khorne @ 213 Pts
1 Champion of skulls @ [45] Pts
Melta bombs and Power fist

1 Land Raider del Caos @ 240 Pts
Demonic possesion

5 Raptors @ 110 Pts
Melta gun

3 Obliterators @ 225 Pts

3 Terminators @ 135 Pts
Slaneesh; 3 pairs of lighting claws

7 CSM @ 145 Pts
Flamer x 1
1 Rhino

6 Plague marines @ 256 Pts
Melta gun x 2
1 Champion with power fist
1 Rhino

10 CSM @ 195 Pts
Flamer x 1
1 Rhino

1 Chaos defiler @ 150 Pts
Extra arm x 1
Heavy flamer x 1

Cheers!

Welcome to Dakka, Senefelder!

The concept of your list is good, and fairly common. Your daemon princes have some of the best options on them, and you have several units of assault troops, almost all of them in transports.

There are a few weaknesses, but not knowing the environment in which you play, and not knowing what other chaos models you might have in your collection, it's hard to make strong suggestions.

Are you generally playing with/against very competitive people, who work on their tactics and on making strong lists? Or more casual people just looking to play with the models which look fun and attractive to them? Are you looking to make your army more competitive, or able to beat a certain kind of army?

Hi mate!

thank you for answering

I use to play with casual people, a little bit competitive, but not too much, and I´m looking for a more competitive list.

I own these other miniatures:

-1 predator
-3 extra termis
-Kharn
-Typhus
-Abbadon
-7 plague marines
-1 great demon
-1 sorceror
-1 Chaos lord
-1 dread
-8 Noise marines

Cheers!!!

Okay, cool.

The first thing I'd be tempted to change is to switch out the land raider, just because it's kind of a big target; but you don't have more Rhinos, so we'll keep it for now.

You didn't mention what weapons the other models have, but I'm going to guess that you have some more weapon bits, like flamers and meltaguns and such.

How about this?

Prince w/wings, mark of Slaanesh, lash: 155
Prince w/wings, mark of Nurgle, warp time: 175

4 Terminators w/3 pairs of Lightning Claws, 1 power fist, 1 heavy flamer, Icon of Slaanesh, : 180
in Land Raider w/daemonic possession: 240

7 Khorne Berserkers incl. Champion w/Fist: 187
in Rhino: 35

7 Plague marines w/2 melta guns, champ w/Fist: 221
Rhino: 35

10 CSM w/2 flamers, icon of chaos glory, champ w/Fist: 210
Rhino: 35

6 Noise Marines w/6 Sonic Blasters: 150

1 Obliterator: 75
2 Obliterators: 150
Defiler w/heavy flamer, extra arm: 150 Pts

1998pts total

In this list I've upgraded your individual squads to be a bit more deadly. I took out the Raptors; I know they're nice models, but they're honestly just not very good. Relatively fragile and expensive and not very deadly.

Every assault unit going forward has a power fist so it can destroy vehicles more easily, and wound marines or monstrous creatures easily.

I put the terminators in the land raider so they too can drive forward quickly. The weakness of deep striking them is that the enemy can shoot them or move away from them more easily. I gave them the heavy flamer because it can really help them reduce the numbers of a larger enemy unit before charging. But if you have the parts, combi-meltas are incredibly useful and you should get some of those for your terminators as soon as you can. Melta weapons in general are extremely important in 5th edition because vehicles are more durable and common, and it's hard to get a lot of them in a chaos list cheaply.

The Noise Marines in this list obviously are the unit that stays behind to hold an objective on your side of the table while your other units move forward to attack.

The Defiler is important because it can either run/Fleet forward to attack as well, or can stay back to defend your Noise Marines if your opponent is aggressive, while still shooting the battlecannon.

I divided the Obliterators into two units, because what you're probably going to need them to do often is Deep Strike (using your Icons in transports as Teleport Homers) close to the enemy, firing Twin-Linked Meltaguns to destroy his tanks. Having two units means you have better odds that at least one will appear on turn 2, and that if they show up on the same turn, they can shoot two different targets at once.

However, if your opponent is mostly running lighter transports (like AV11 Rhinos and Razorbacks), you may just want to leave the Obliterators back by the Noise Marines and have them fire lascannons most of the game.

Good list.

Ok here's the low down, In my opinion. Take it or leave it.
From a strictly points efficient view your all over the place. Chaos terminators , while theyre amazing figs, are just to damn expensive
and do a job that cheaper , more effective, units do better. Taking themis bad enough, but buying claws, a mark, and a landraider just to facilitate
those bad boyz is just wasted points. A zerker unit in a rhino will have more hitting power at half the points and will add another scoring unit to your
list of tools. The same goes for raptors, while cool figs, and a good intention with the melta. it would be more efficient to drop them and take another obi with
some points left over.
Fill out your troops. Cutting marines to fit in more toys is cool, but a full 10 man scoring unit will go the extra mile for you when you most need it.
Most marines will be the victim of immense saturation fire. THe effective way of getting by those 3+ saves. and every body helps. Also once you hit 10
men in a CSM squad you get 2 special weapons. Utilize this and give each squad a pair of meltas. Cut the points and buy a 5 man plauge marine sqaud with 2 plasmas
in a rhino for objective holding firesupport.
Powerfist and melta bombs?> Think about that for a moment.
Fist is good. Let these 10 mans do the messy work. Use each troop to its job. Lash the enemy into the zerkers range. Or lash em into a nice tight group for some
obi plasma death.
Princes.
I like the lash prince. Keep em cheap .
The other one has warptime suggesting a combat oriented jobset? If thats the case Give it mark of tzeentch for that 4+ invuln.
Princes are the #1 targets for heavy weapons and the 4+ helps.
In conclusion
Each troop has a job IE: khorne nurgle etc etc , utilizie it together and youll find good results
CSM squads are solid aggressive units. they just need support and magnets to take fire off their rhinos
Mech up. Drop the defiler for a vindicator. Between that. the rhinos and the princes your opponent wont know where to start.
This armie lives n dies by its troops and what theyre backed up with.

Thank you to all of you for your comments and useful explanations.

I´m going to start playing with Mannahnin proposal (mainly because I´ve got the miniatures) and I´ll tell you my experience with that list (maybe next weekend)

Excuse the question, but my english is not the best, what´s the meaning of: CSM squads are solid aggressive units. they just need support and magnets to take fire off their rhinos


Powerfist and melta bombs?> Think about that for a moment. ...

Cheers!!!

Firstly welcome.

the sentence means that your chaos space marines squads are good for attack. they need support, in order to reach the enemy without damage inside their rhinos.

am i right TL Shaggy ???

A "fire magnet" is a colloquial term for a unit which draws enemy fire like a magnet draws iron. An individual Rhino isn't hard to stop, so having one or more fire magnets on the table helps keep your Rhinos alive to get their passengers where they need to go.

IMO the land raider and daemon princes are the usual fire magnets in this list. The Defiler can be as well in some lists, but with those three hard units going forward, I think he'll tend to draw less fire.

The other one has warptime suggesting a combat oriented jobset? If thats the case Give it mark of tzeentch for that 4+ invuln.
Princes are the #1 targets for heavy weapons and the 4+ helps.

IME Nurgle is much better for most applications. It makes you substantially more durable vs. all guns S4-S7 (which is a lot of them), and usually halves the number of saves you have to make in close combat. If you're worried about being shot, you can easily get cover saves from your Rhinos and LR.

Everything is clear now.

By now I think I´m gonig to take the Nurgle Prince. I´m not sure which one is better, but it´s my favourite mark

Thanks to all!!!

The other one has warptime suggesting a combat oriented jobset? If thats the case Give it mark of tzeentch for that 4+ invuln.
Princes are the #1 targets for heavy weapons and the 4+ helps.

IME Nurgle is much better for most applications. It makes you substantially more durable vs. all guns S4-S7 (which is a lot of them), and usually halves the number of saves you have to make in close combat. If you're worried about being shot, you can easily get cover saves from your Rhinos and LR.

Your math is wrong on the prince, and your premise that anyone shooting S6 or lower guns at him is dumb is wrong too.

The biggest difference between T5 and T6 is that HALF as many S4 attacks wound. 6s instead of 5+. That's bolters, all regular SM attacks, Orks on the charge, etc., etc. You only have a 3+ save, not a 2+; you will fail some. But the 16% reduction in wounds from everything S5, S6, and S7 (including plasmaguns and the autocannons you see in every IG list) is a significant help, too. It often means the difference between him getting picked off before he gets to combat, and him making it there intact.

I've been fielding and facing Lash (T5) and Nurgle princes in weekly games and several GTs a year since the codex came out. The toughness difference is a big deal.

And again, proper use of terrain and your own vehicles gives you a 4+ cover save against most of your opponent's guns on the way in, anyway.

Mannahnin wrote:Your math is wrong on the prince, and your premise that anyone shooting S6 or lower guns at him is dumb is wrong too.

The biggest difference between T5 and T6 is that HALF as many S4 attacks wound. 6s instead of 5+. That's bolters, all regular SM attacks, Orks on the charge, etc., etc. You only have a 3+ save, not a 2+; you will fail some. But the 16% reduction in wounds from everything S5, S6, and S7 (including plasmaguns and the autocannons you see in every IG list) is a significant help, too. It often means the difference between him getting picked off before he gets to combat, and him making it there intact.

I've been fielding and facing Lash (T5) and Nurgle princes in weekly games and several GTs a year since the codex came out. The toughness difference is a big deal.

And again, proper use of terrain and your own vehicles gives you a 4+ cover save against most of your opponent's guns on the way in, anyway.

Its not about str 4 shots. Str 4 shots may wound your toughness 6 on 6's but once again thats a big waste of points because the weapons that shoot daemon princes into oblivion are
str 7 8 9 10.
Multiple Long fangs will kill a nurgle prince in one turn. Hit on 3's wound on 2's . save on a 5+. Although this is taking fire off your rhinos its still bane for a combat prince.
I take princes with lash and wings and call it a day. But if you really want that prince because its a badass fig and you want to kill some loyalist dogs The 4+ inv will give that fether a chance to get to combat in the first place.
A lascannon doesn't care if your toughness is 5 or 6. Bolters may. But the day a prince dies to bolters in 1 turn is the day i quit chaos. As well plasma guns wounding on 3+ will still kill that prince in no time.

4+ cover means it takes a fair number of lascannons or missiles to kill a prince, and part of the point of wings is that you can terrain-hop and prevent your opponent from getting as many heavy weapon shots as he wants to on him. If you are playing on a normal table, or even a fairly open table as long as you bring some vehicles yourself, you will be able to get cover saves which make a 4+ Invulnerable redundant.

IG pack a shedload of Autocannons, Multilasers, and Plasmaguns. SM often pack a significant number of Plasmaguns, Assault Cannons, and usually a pile of bolters and guys with S4 HTH attacks. Orks throw S7 loota shots and a million S4 Shoota and HTH attacks.

Yes, missiles and lascannons are the bigger threats, but in normal play they only get part of the job done, and the less-optimal guns and/or close combat attacks typically hang the last wound or two on him. T6 makes you substantially more durable against the vast majority of your opponent's weapons.

I love my Lash princes, and I've used Tzeentch princes, but Nurgle beats them for durability by a mile.

There is no terrain hopping if your dead turn 1.
And. As ridiculous as that seems you and I both know that most top tier armies
these days pack enough heavy stuff to do the job.

It could be the tables we play on, or the players we play against. But hiding a daemon prince (new model)
behind cover is alot harder than most would think (atleast with our game stores terrain) and generally speaking i dont take combat
princes anyway. But if you are taking one for any reason. All of which are valid to me. then you will find that moment when you win combat
gloriously in the name of the ruinous powers. Only to find yourself joining them later because of a lack of cover during consolidation.

That 4+ inv just ( to me) makes the scarey weapons bounce half the time. I generally get shot by 10 missles not 12 bolters here at our store.

If you're dead on turn 1, you need to buy more terrain.

You can't give useful list advice if you play all your games on billiard tables.

Abit harsh id say. Given the size of the new model compared
to the size of our terrain.
Id take the 4+ anyday . Ill take a few wounds from a hell of alot of bolters over being dead

Maybe a bit harsh, but seriously, an average table should have at least two pieces of terrain on each side (as well as some in the middle) capable of completely hiding a daemon prince or an entire tank. If it doesn't, whoever owns that table has failed to update it properly for 5th edition. Back in 4th edition you couldn't see across a Wood template, so LOS-blocking woods were all over the place. People have gotten lazy in not updating their tables with more solid buildings and hills.

Again, when it comes down to the 4+, there is NO reason for you not to be able to get cover saves for your daemon prince as he advances. If you can't, you really are playing on a billiard table.

I'd say to try out your demon prince with both MoN and MoT in different games. In my opinion those are the only two marks worth taking for a prince, and both add to their survivability. Which one is better may come down to what you are facing across the table.

Needless to say factoring in deployment makes that cover save all the harder. Deploying first or second isnt always in your control.
Even more so when facing space wolf pods. Id prefer to have a 4+ inv against the envitable plamsa pod dropping from the sky.
Or the 5 to 10 missle launchers on the table.
Then theres the prospect of actual close combat whereas a powerfist doesn't care about toughnes 6 (atleast on MEQ's)
but it does care alot more about a 4+ inv.

Power fist: That´s a good point for Tzeencht mark, IMHO. In any other cases, I think like Mannahnin does.

What do you think about Slaneesh Prince with lash? Obviously not for CC but for other tasks ...

Lash princes are the most broken pieces of gak ever. which is why i love them. combat princes generally never get their points back whereas a lash prince is less aggressive but will control the battle for you.

Lash grey hunters into a circle and drop a template. lol>>.

I still cling to the 4+ inv for a combat prince. Being in combat is his job right? so it'd be great if a powerfist didnt kill him before the combats over.

As for the billard comment. Either i suck or your playing with terrain roughly scaled to the himalaya mountains.
Our game store, Capital city games, Makes the terrain for adepticon. I gak thee not. So were playing on standard tables
6 by 4's with 6 pieces of terrain per table. And yet I STILL find terrain hoping like you say problematic. Not to mention taking wounds from
landing in terrain is just embarrassing and another reason to take a 4+ DOH.
If you can hide your daemon prince in behind terrain every turn you are a god amongst men. or your using the old model .

TL Shaggy wrote:
I still cling to the 4+ inv for a combat prince. Being in combat is his job right? so it'd be great if a powerfist didnt kill him before the combats over.

Yes, the question was about a CC demon prince

Mannahnin, how do you use the Nurgle Demon Prince when you play aginst MEQ´s with power fists in every unit???

Cheers!

TL Shaggy wrote:Needless to say factoring in deployment makes that cover save all the harder. Deploying first or second isnt always in your control.
Even more so when facing space wolf pods. Id prefer to have a 4+ inv against the envitable plamsa pod dropping from the sky.
Or the 5 to 10 missle launchers on the table.

With any normal terrain or with any vehicles in your army you can deploy to have cover against the missiles, and usually be hidden from at least some of them.
You can get cover from the drop pods by using your Rhinos properly, creating blocked-off zones and obscuring your Prince.

Mannahnin, how do you use the Nurgle Demon Prince when you play aginst MEQ´s with power fists in every unit???

First, you can assault units which don't have fists; like shooty support, vehicles, etc.

Second, a single fist isn't all that scary. If you get the charge he only has two attacks, and on average 1 of those attacks hits you. He then has an 84% chance to wound (can still roll a 1), and you save 1/3rd of those wounds. So the average vet sgt with fist only averages .55 wounds on you per round. That's probably a wound every other round of HTH. Mark of Tzeentch reduces that to .42 wounds/rd; not a huge difference, and one in fact made up by the Nurgle prince being wounded less by the regular attacks coming at you. Here, I'll show you:

Against a squad of 10 Grey Hunters or BA assault marines, for example, either prince kills the same number before the marines swing- Warp Time gives you an average of 4.44 hits out of 5 attacks, which come out to 4.32 wounds/dead marines. So usually about 4 in the first round. Say it's a full 10 man squad; aside from the fist, 5 regular guys swing back with 10 attacks for assault marines, or 15 for Grey Hunters. 10 attacks = 5 hits = 1.66 wounds against the Tzeentch prince = .55 failed saves from the BA; from the SW it's .83.

So the total average number of wounds suffered by the Tzeentch prince in the first round, adding the powerfist to the regular attacks, is .92 from the BA, or 1.25 against the wolves.

How about the Nurgle prince? 10 attacks against him = 5 hits = .83 wounds before saves, and .28 afterward. 15 attacks = .42 after saves. Adding that up, fist + regular attacks, the Nurgle prince suffers .83 wounds from the BA, or .97 unsaved wounds from the wolves. Mathematically, he suffers a bit less over a single round, and substantially better over multiple successive rounds of HTH. If the enemy is charging you and piling on a bunch more S4 attacks, the advantage of Nurgle gets even bigger.

Lash princes are awesome too, though less durable. Still, their power helps keep them alive, as they can operate further back, making better use of cover. Or when moving forward to assault can move enemy shooters (like Long Fangs) behind terrain to lose LOS, and move assault targets closer to get into HTH faster.

Mannahnin wrote:

TL Shaggy wrote:Needless to say factoring in deployment makes that cover save all the harder. Deploying first or second isnt always in your control.
Even more so when facing space wolf pods. Id prefer to have a 4+ inv against the envitable plamsa pod dropping from the sky.
Or the 5 to 10 missle launchers on the table.

With any normal terrain or with any vehicles in your army you can deploy to have cover against the missiles, and usually be hidden from at least some of them.
You can get cover from the drop pods by using your Rhinos properly, creating blocked-off zones and obscuring your Prince.

Mannahnin, how do you use the Nurgle Demon Prince when you play aginst MEQ´s with power fists in every unit???

First, you can assault units which don't have fists; like shooty support, vehicles, etc.

Second, a single fist isn't all that scary. If you get the charge he only has two attacks, and on average 1 of those attacks hits you. He then has an 84% chance to wound (can still roll a 1), and you save 1/3rd of those wounds. So the average vet sgt with fist only averages .55 wounds on you per round. That's probably a wound every other round of HTH. Mark of Tzeentch reduces that to .42 wounds/rd; not a huge difference, and one in fact made up by the Nurgle prince being wounded less by the regular attacks coming at you. Here, I'll show you:

Against a squad of 10 Grey Hunters or BA assault marines, for example, either prince kills the same number before the marines swing- Warp Time gives you an average of 4.44 hits out of 5 attacks, which come out to 4.32 wounds/dead marines. So usually about 4 in the first round. Say it's a full 10 man squad; aside from the fist, 5 regular guys swing back with 10 attacks for assault marines, or 15 for Grey Hunters. 10 attacks = 5 hits = 1.66 wounds against the Tzeentch prince = .55 failed saves from the BA; from the SW it's .83.

So the total average number of wounds suffered by the Tzeentch prince in the first round, adding the powerfist to the regular attacks, is .92 from the BA, or 1.25 against the wolves.

How about the Nurgle prince? 10 attacks against him = 5 hits = .83 wounds before saves, and .28 afterward. 15 attacks = .42 after saves. Adding that up, fist + regular attacks, the Nurgle prince suffers .83 wounds from the BA, or .97 unsaved wounds from the wolves. Mathematically, he suffers a bit less over a single round, and substantially better over multiple successive rounds of HTH. If the enemy is charging you and piling on a bunch more S4 attacks, the advantage of Nurgle gets even bigger.

Lash princes are awesome too, though less durable. Still, their power helps keep them alive, as they can operate further back, making better use of cover. Or when moving forward to assault can move enemy shooters (like Long Fangs) behind terrain to lose LOS, and move assault targets closer to get into HTH faster.

Mannahnin i enjoy debating with you simply because most other people are stupid.

Deploying rhino's to shield the prince is common , i agree completely, and for my lash prince generally do the same. But what about wolves? Or sternguard pods (sadface) .
Playing at space wolves i generally reserve unless im running zerkers which adds a completely random part to the game. It just unprediactable where that hatred in power armor will
fall and what anti daemon prince weapons they'll be packin.
In a general game against wolves the prince is either dead via missles or gets to combat and dies to the first. That extra attack helps.
Given the random nature of pods and the ridiculous godsend known as skillfangs its almost impossible to escape furry vengeance.
Also keep in mind that princes (regardless of mark) are an amazing fire magnet and the more going at him is the less at my rhinos. Wit that
being said i'd like to keep him alive long enough to continue doing just that. and racking up kills points while im at it. The longer he's alive the less rockets are hitting my rhinoes.

TL Shaggy wrote:

Mannahnin i enjoy debating with you simply because most other people are stupid.

I´m not sure, but maybe a MOD should send a PM to this guy ...

ouch

It's okay, guys. While TL Shaggy's comment was, perhaps, a bit misanthropic, he wasn't insulting anyone in particular.

Deploying rhino's to shield the prince is common , i agree completely, and for my lash prince generally do the same. But what about wolves? Or sternguard pods (sadface) .

What about wolves? Against podding Sternguard, as I said, I shield the prince with a combination of Rhinos and terrain. If they manage to kill the prince, I WILL kill the sternguard and pod in trade, which inevitably cost a lot more than the prince.

Given the random nature of pods and the ridiculous godsend known as skillfangs its almost impossible to escape furry vengeance.

That's a bummer. I win against SW more than I lose, but I don't have a lot of maximized SW opponents at my local.

I've tried MoN and MoT and I must say MoT is better. Things going for the Prince i.e lascannons, thunder hammers, power fists, meltas, plasma etc don't care about T6 whether you're in cover or not - they still wound on a 2+ whether T5 or T6, except plasma that is. Sure you will get cover from the terrain and transports, but that won't always happen and when in combat the 4+ invulnerable is a lot better.