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mercer wrote:I've tried MoN and MoT and I must say MoT is better. Things going for the Prince i.e lascannons, thunder hammers, power fists, meltas, plasma etc don't care about T6 whether you're in cover or not - they still wound on a 2+ whether T5 or T6, except plasma that is. Sure you will get cover from the terrain and transports, but that won't always happen and when in combat the 4+ invulnerable is a lot better.

agreed. Atleast when building a combat prince.


As for the SW comment , sad as it makes me our store has 3 or 4 sw pod lists that switch between 3 priests lists to 3 skillfang squads lists.=[

Yup. As mentioned thunder hammers and power fists don't care and the ranged stuff going against the Prince doesn't care. MoN only offers marginal protection against small arms fire, but I've found that doesn't get directed to my Prince. As I said, cover will not always be available.

As noted, a cover save is just as good as an invulnerable against shooting. The Nurgle prince, 90%+ of the time, is more durable against shooting than the Tzeentch prince. If he's not, you're playing badly or not using enough terrain. Maybe one or two turns a game a prince will get stuck out in the open, but if you're doing it right you'll already have cut down some of your opponent's shooting and you'll have other, pricier assault units in his lines too.

And as the math shows, the Nurgle prince is MORE durable against an enemy assault unit with a Fist than a Tzeentch prince is.

A whole squad of TH&SS terminators mulches either one, as does a full squad of thunderwolves, so that's no argument for the Tzeentch prince in HTH.

As for the SW comment , sad as it makes me our store has 3 or 4 sw pod lists that switch between 3 priests lists to 3 skillfang squads lists

I never have problems with pod lists. If I button up in my Rhinos or just Reserve my army, I destroy them. They give up KP like crazy, and I get to shoot & charge them. They can drop far away instead of up close, but then I have a substantial mobility advantage.

I wont lie you must not be playing joe adams then. As playing SW pods is rarely as easy you make it out to be.
Your arguement is that mark of nurgle belays most wounds coming from guns str 4 - 7,
I dont think a tactical squad has ever been within rapid fire range of my prince, mostly because that would mean their in assault
range too and most players would figure out who will win that fight.

I have yet to lose a prince to bolter shots or heavy bolters for that matter , most struggle to wound on 5's anyway not to mention the 3 +.
Taking mark of nurgle to negate SOME plasma wounds is irrelevant , now their only wounding on 3's and every wound is not saved on 5+ =\
I dont understand how you think a nurgle prince is more durable against a powerfist. The logic is beyond me.

Mannahnin wrote:As noted, a cover save is just as good as an invulnerable against shooting. The Nurgle prince, 90%+ of the time, is more durable against shooting than the Tzeentch prince. If he's not, you're playing badly or not using enough terrain. Maybe one or two turns a game a prince will get stuck out in the open, but if you're doing it right you'll already have cut down some of your opponent's shooting and you'll have other, pricier assault units in his lines too.

And as the math shows, the Nurgle prince is MORE durable against an enemy assault unit with a Fist than a Tzeentch prince is.

A whole squad of TH&SS terminators mulches either one, as does a full squad of thunderwolves, so that's no argument for the Tzeentch prince in HTH.

Yes, and as noted the weapons firing at the Prince don't care about T6 - so why bother on the upgrade when it doesn't matter?

A Prince isn't more durable with MoN against a fist than MoT, both wound on a 2+

A MoT Prince survives longer, you say there's no argument for that, well there's definately no arguement at all when firing as said weapons still wound on a 2+ whether T5 or T6 - same as a power fist!


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TL Shaggy wrote:I wont lie you must not be playing joe adams then. As playing SW pods is rarely as easy you make it out to be.
Your arguement is that mark of nurgle belays most wounds coming from guns str 4 - 7,
I dont think a tactical squad has ever been within rapid fire range of my prince, mostly because that would mean their in assault
range too and most players would figure out who will win that fight.

I have yet to lose a prince to bolter shots or heavy bolters for that matter , most struggle to wound on 5's anyway not to mention the 3 +.
Taking mark of nurgle to negate SOME plasma wounds is irrelevant , now their only wounding on 3's and every wound is not saved on 5+ =\
I dont understand how you think a nurgle prince is more durable against a powerfist. The logic is beyond me.

QFT - this fella is switched on.

Please read the rest of the thread, Mercer.

The fact of the matter is that if you're playing on a table with terrain, and using your vehicles properly, your opponent will rarely get the chance to kill your prince purely with S8+ stuff. Plasma, multilasers, autocannons, and yes, even simple S4 bolters and HTH attacks all normally play a role in killing a prince, the shooting in the first 2 turns or so while your squads are buttoned up in Rhinos under cover or smoked, and the S4 HTH attacks once you're stuck in. Maneuvering properly means your opponent doesn't have ideal targets for all of his guns, and will be shooting some NON-S8+ stuff at the prince. And that stuff usually hangs a wound or two on him. The Nurgle prince is substantially more durable against all that stuff. And again, there is absolutely NO reason for a prince not to at least be getting cover saves on the way in. If you think a 4+ save makes the big diffence, and T6, doesn't, than you should really be advocating no mark at all to save points.

In HTH, I ran the math of a Nurgle prince and a Tzeentch Princes against 10 GHs or 10 BA assault marines, either squad with a Fist, and the fact is that the Nurgle prince suffers fewer wounds.

I wont lie you must not be playing joe adams then. As playing SW pods is rarely as easy you make it out to be.

I don't mean to say that it's necessarily EASY, or that I don't suffer casualties doing it. But I do find it easier than facing the more common shooty/mech wolves.

As for the quality of my competition, I did place top 5-6 in the Adepticon championships this year and last year, top 20 in the team event this year and last year, and top 10 in the ard boys finals this year and last year. I've top-tenned a couple of GTs as well. I'm not a stranger to competitive play.

Mannahnin wrote:Please read the rest of the thread, Mercer.

The fact of the matter is that if you're playing on a table with terrain, and using your vehicles properly, your opponent will rarely get the chance to kill your prince purely with S8+ stuff. Plasma, multilasers, autocannons, and yes, even simple S4 bolters and HTH attacks all normally play a role in killing a prince, the shooting in the first 2 turns or so while your squads are buttoned up in Rhinos under cover or smoked, and the S4 HTH attacks once you're stuck in. Maneuvering properly means your opponent doesn't have ideal targets for all of his guns, and will be shooting some NON-S8+ stuff at the prince. And that stuff usually hangs a wound or two on him. The Nurgle prince is substantially more durable against all that stuff. And again, there is absolutely NO reason for a prince not to at least be getting cover saves on the way in. If you think a 4+ save makes the big diffence, and T6, doesn't, than you should really be advocating no mark at all to save points.

In HTH, I ran the math of a Nurgle prince and a Tzeentch Princes against 10 GHs or 10 BA assault marines, either squad with a Fist, and the fact is that the Nurgle prince suffers fewer wounds.

I have read the thread, you don't think I'm one of these jumping in do you? Just because you're a mod doesn't mean you can boss people around.

Point is whatever is firing at the Prince the T6 doesn't matter and therefore is wasted, that's the entire point. Sure you will get cover, that's sound and I agree with that but my point is the stuff blowing the Princes brains out doesn't care about T6 so why bother upgrading it. Use the points else where on something which benefits more, no one is going to be rapid firing a Prince anyway and if they do no doubt they'll be dead next turn.

So T6 isn't more durable against the stuff firing at the Prince, it still wounds on a 2+ whether T6 or T5, that is my entire point.

Summed up my entire arguement nicely

mercer wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Please read the rest of the thread, Mercer.

The fact of the matter is that if you're playing on a table with terrain, and using your vehicles properly, your opponent will rarely get the chance to kill your prince purely with S8+ stuff. Plasma, multilasers, autocannons, and yes, even simple S4 bolters and HTH attacks all normally play a role in killing a prince, the shooting in the first 2 turns or so while your squads are buttoned up in Rhinos under cover or smoked, and the S4 HTH attacks once you're stuck in. Maneuvering properly means your opponent doesn't have ideal targets for all of his guns, and will be shooting some NON-S8+ stuff at the prince. And that stuff usually hangs a wound or two on him. The Nurgle prince is substantially more durable against all that stuff. And again, there is absolutely NO reason for a prince not to at least be getting cover saves on the way in. If you think a 4+ save makes the big diffence, and T6, doesn't, than you should really be advocating no mark at all to save points.

In HTH, I ran the math of a Nurgle prince and a Tzeentch Princes against 10 GHs or 10 BA assault marines, either squad with a Fist, and the fact is that the Nurgle prince suffers fewer wounds.

I have read the thread, you don't think I'm one of these jumping in do you? Just because you're a mod doesn't mean you can boss people around.

I'm not trying to boss you around, friend. I'm trying to politely point out that I already refuted your argument earlier, and giving you the credit of assuming that it wasn't a problem of you having poor reading comprehension or innumeracy.

mercer wrote:Point is whatever is firing at the Prince the T6 doesn't matter and therefore is wasted, that's the entire point. Sure you will get cover, that's sound and I agree with that but my point is the stuff blowing the Princes brains out doesn't care about T6 so why bother upgrading it. Use the points else where on something which benefits more, no one is going to be rapid firing a Prince anyway and if they do no doubt they'll be dead next turn.

So T6 isn't more durable against the stuff firing at the Prince, it still wounds on a 2+ whether T6 or T5, that is my entire point.

Plasma, Autocannons, Multilasers, etc, etc.

If your opponent isn't shooting other stuff than lascannons and missiles at the prince, either he is a very poor player, or you are playing on a barren table and his fire allocation is too easy.

In the first case- you probably don't need any tactical advice to roll him.
In the second case- don't bother taking a Prince, as he'll pretty much always die before getting into HtH. You might as well take a Sorcerer or a special character in a transport.

If your opponent is never throwing S4 HTH attacks at the prince, then either there are no SM or Ork armies in your area, or you are not playing any form of 40k I ever heard of.

If your opponent is never throwing S4 HTH attacks at the prince, then either there are no SM or Ork armies in your area, or you are not playing any form of 40k I ever heard of.

Not entirely true. Theres a variety of SM ( and chapter varients ) players at my local game store but ive yet to find my daemon prince taking multiple bolter shots. Mostly SM squads wont venture within 12" of him without packing a few special weapons

But I'm point out that even assuming they DO let loose on him with the special weapons, the Nurgle prince STILL comes out ahead and suffers fewer wounds in total.

Squad of 7 Plague Marines moves up to DP and rapid-fires on a Prince.
Against Nurgle prince-
2x Meltaguns = .74 wounds after saves
5x bolters = .37 wounds after saves
Total of 1.11

Against Tzeentch prince.
2x melta = .54 wounds after saves
5x bolters = .73 wounds after saves
Total of 1.27

Nurgle wins.

How about 10 Grey Hunters with a pair of meltaguns, and a fist, shooting then charging?
Shooting Nurgle:
Total of .996 wounds
Shooting Tzeentch:
Total of 1.053 wounds

DP swings first and kills roughly 4.

GH swing at Nurgle:
1.25 wounds total from fist and regular attacks.

GH swing at Tzeentch:
1.46 wounds total from fist and regular attacks.

Nurgle is more durable. Edit: Crap, actually, I forgot that the SW guy with a Fist has 1A base. The margin's actually more in Nurgle's favor than I have it above.

Here are a few more:

The Nurgle squad above, only armed with Plasma instead of Melta:
Against Nurgle Prince- 1.52
Against Tzeentch Prince- 1.84

A squad of BA Assault Marines w/2x melta, Fist Sgt, with a Priest in range to give them FC (but the priest not involved directly), shooting and charging:Shooting against Nurgle Prince- 1.03
Shooting against Tzeentch Prince- 1.2

Assault, Prince kills 4, leaving 6 FCing BA, including the Fist and both the meltaguns (if he takes off the Meltas, the situation's even more in Nurgle's favor).

Total wounds against Nurgle Prince from assault- 1.44 after saves
Total wounds against Tzeentch Prince from assault- 1.55 after saves

How about 20 Ork Shoota Boys with a Big Shoota and PK Nob, charging out of a battlewagon?
Shooting at Nurgle: .8 wounds
Shooting at Tzeentch: 1.54 wounds

Assault, once again Prince kills 4 before they get to swing.

Total wounds against Nurgle Prince from assault- 2.36 after saves
Total wounds against Tzeentch Prince from assault- 3.34 after saves

So the Nurgle prince, on average, survives being shot and charged (taking roughly 3W), while the Tzeentch Prince does not (taking approx 5W). You can then counter-charge with one of your other units, and crump the Orks, while having the Nurgle Prince kill another 4 Orks and make the Ork player have a tough choice- throw PK attacks on the prince, probably only scoring 1-2 more wounds for CR and just barely finishing him off, or throw them at the new unit that is about to slaughter the Orks?

Run some scenarios yourself. Pick just about any unit you like. In the vast majority of situations, Nurgle is just plain tougher.