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How exactly does Warp Quake interact with Summoned Lesser Daemons from the Chaos Space Marine codex?

Warp Quake makes wargear that prevent scatter cease to work. Summoned Lesser Daemons need to be placed within range of an Icon, which also prevents scatter. The SLD text also says that "as normal... the Deep Striking Daemons do not roll for scatter."

1) Can SLD be placed within range of an Icon, even though the Icon does not work? Warp Quake implies that only the scatter prevention ceases to function, but would it go further than that?
2) If so, do they roll for scatter, even though their own rules make mention of not scattering?

If I remember correctly, and I am going off memory, those items will cease to function. Meaning, you can't summon Daemons if Grey Knights are too close.

Warp Quake specificaly says that anything that prevents scattering stops functioning, as you said. It is not the SLD that doesn't scatter, it's the Icon that prevents it. Place your DS marker within 6" of the icon (not the squad... god this dex sucks). After placing your marker, measure the distance from the warp quaking squad to the icon, not the squad with the icon (i guess there's one good thing about it). If the icon is within 12 inches then the SLD scatter. After you scatter and place all the models, measure the distance from the warp quaking squad to the LSD squad. If it is within 12" then it's a DS mishap.

Warp Quake does not stop the icon from allowing you to summon the daemons, it only causes them to scatter.

Sothas wrote:Warp Quake specificaly says that anything that prevents scattering stops functioning, as you said. It is not the SLD that doesn't scatter, it's the Icon that prevents it. Place your DS marker within 6" of the icon (not the squad... god this dex sucks). After placing your marker, measure the distance from the warp quaking squad to the icon, not the squad with the icon (i guess there's one good thing about it). If the icon is within 12 inches then the SLD scatter. After you scatter and place all the models, measure the distance from the warp quaking squad to the LSD squad. If it is within 12" then it's a DS mishap.

Warp Quake does not stop the icon from allowing you to summon the daemons, it only causes them to scatter.

You'd think they'd adress this in the codex, as it's something that will be comming up alot vs Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines. But I guess they just decided to Hurr Durr and not mention it. Sothas is correct though.

Sothas wrote:Warp Quake specificaly says that anything that prevents scattering stops functioning, as you said. It is not the SLD that doesn't scatter, it's the Icon that prevents it. Place your DS marker within 6" of the icon (not the squad... god this dex sucks). After placing your marker, measure the distance from the warp quaking squad to the icon, not the squad with the icon (i guess there's one good thing about it). If the icon is within 12 inches then the SLD scatter. After you scatter and place all the models, measure the distance from the warp quaking squad to the LSD squad. If it is within 12" then it's a DS mishap.

Warp Quake does not stop the icon from allowing you to summon the daemons, it only causes them to scatter.

Summoned Lesser Demons never scatter, they may only be deployed on the table within 6" of an icon. If an Icon is not on the table, they cannot be deployed at all. It appears that Warp Quake causes the Icon to not work.

The OP is asking then, if the Warp Quake is in range, are the demons not able to be deployed?

The icon is still there, however they now scatter.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The icon is still there, however they now scatter.

But the CSM summoning rules state that they don't scatter, and if there is no icon to be placed within 6" of, they cannot be deployed. The CSM Icon doesn't "prevent" them from scattering, it is actually the only way they may be deployed at all. Thus, Warp Quake causes things that "prevent" scattering to no longer "prevent" scatter, well, the CSM Icon doesn't prevent anything.

By your interpretation, would they be able to scatter outside of 6" of an Icon, and then still be able to assault?

I don't have the GK book in front of me, but if the wording says "things that prevent scattering" don't work than it would have no effect on the LSD icon, because you aren't preventing a scatter, because they never scatter. Just my opinion.

Not following.

Warp Quake stops wargear that prevents scatter from functioning in stopping scatter. So the icon is still there, however when you place them within 6", as you are still required to do, they will now scatter.

And, as it is the summoning rules that let them assault, even IF they scatter (and dont die...., etc) they are still able to assault.

They would scatter if they were a deepstriking unit, but they aren't deepstriking. they are summoning which is totally different.

Summoned units come in within 6 of an icon and never scatter. You are applying rules to them that don't apply to them.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not following.

Warp Quake stops wargear that prevents scatter from functioning in stopping scatter. So the icon is still there, however when you place them within 6", as you are still required to do, they will now scatter.

And, as it is the summoning rules that let them assault, even IF they scatter (and dont die...., etc) they are still able to assault.

Summoned lesser demons never scatter. Ever. If the Icon doesn't work, they can't deploy because they can only ever deploy within 6" of an Icon. If the Warp Quake prevents the Icon from working, then the demons can't deploy. If the Warp Quake doesn't stop the Icon from working, if it is "still there" as you say, then the demons should be able to summon just fine.

The demons are never prevented from scattering because of the icon, so the Warp Quake should have no effect on them at all. The demons have no mechanism for scattering in the rules, they arrive within 6" of an icon. The rules do say however, that you place the demons and then measure range to the icon, and if they are found to be farther than 6" from the Icon, they are simply destroyed. They never have to roll scatter dice because they simply don't scatter, they either deploy within 6" of the Icon, or not at all.

whitedragon wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not following.

Warp Quake stops wargear that prevents scatter from functioning in stopping scatter. So the icon is still there, however when you place them within 6", as you are still required to do, they will now scatter.

And, as it is the summoning rules that let them assault, even IF they scatter (and dont die...., etc) they are still able to assault.

Summoned lesser demons never scatter. Ever. If the Icon doesn't work, they can't deploy because they can only ever deploy within 6" of an Icon. If the Warp Quake prevents the Icon from working, then the demons can't deploy. If the Warp Quake doesn't stop the Icon from working, if it is "still there" as you say, then the demons should be able to summon just fine.

The demons are never prevented from scattering because of the icon, so the Warp Quake should have no effect on them at all. The demons have no mechanism for scattering in the rules, they arrive within 6" of an icon. The rules do say however, that you place the demons and then measure range to the icon, and if they are found to be farther than 6" from the Icon, they are simply destroyed. They never have to roll scatter dice because they simply don't scatter, they either deploy within 6" of the Icon, or not at all.

I think you have hit the heart of the question. Does the icon stop working (including summoning) because it can prevent scatter for some other units, or does just the "deepstrike doesn't scatter" part of it stop working which summoning doesn't use. I say the latter, but what do I know.

1) Read page 61. note it says:

p61, chaos dex wrote:is deployed in the same way as a unit that arrives from Reserve using the Deep Strike rules......As normal, because they always appear within range of an Icon of CHaos, the Deep Striking Daemons do not roll for scatter

2) Once you have read the aqbove, you will hopefully note the following things:

a) They are arriving via Deepstrike. This means they normally scatter. Irrefutable.
b) The icon is preventing scatter. note the "because", and also note the rules for Icons on p81.
c) BECAUSE of warp quake, any item that prevents scatter stops functioning. Note that ALL this affects is the "prevents scatter" part

So we have the following:

1) Daemons DS within 6" of the icon.
2) f the icon is within 12" of the Warp Quake unit then the "no scatter" ability does not function
3) The icon is still physically there. You can still measure to it. So the Daemons can still DS and MUST still attempt to do so within 6"
4) They wil now scatter. However as it is the Daemons special rule that allows them to assault after DS they can still do so - assuming they are still alive, of course

The end.

Nos has it. Whitedragon, I think where you went wrong was in thinking that summoning is not deep striking. In the current codex it is deep striking. Just with a couple of variations.

That rule from p61 can be interpreted to say that while they may arrive in the same way as a unit using the deep strike rules, they are not deep striking they are summoning.

EDIT: and I'd be willing to agree with Nos more detailed explanation that the demons would have to still attempt to be within 6" of the icon after scattering or not deploy. However his first comments didn't state that, causing me to think he was implying that demons affected by warpquake could get lucky and extend their distance a little bit due to the funky wording of the power.

On the other hand, I also stand by what is said above, that while the demons may be arriving the same as a unit by deepstriking, they are technically not deepstriking, else the rule would read that they deploy via deepstrike specifically, with no mention of "the same as another unit arriving by deepstrike."

Like I said I didn't have the books in front of me. I didn't think summoning said it counted as deepstriking, but if it does that changes things.

We need to abandon ship Whitedragon.

"in the same way as" Deep Striking means we follow the DS rules except where explicitly told to do otherwise.

My interpretation would be they can still deep strike within the six inches, but if they scatter outside that, they're dead. So it's not really worth the risk.

Why would they be dead?

The only danger to the daemons should be mishap. Either from the scatter or for landing within 12" of a model with Warp Quake.

Mannahnin wrote:"in the same way as" Deep Striking means we follow the DS rules except where explicitly told to do otherwise.

I disagree, only because there is no other mechanism in the game by which to be "placed" on the table, they chose to say "in the same way as deepstriking". If they meant for demons to deepstrike, they could have just said "arrive by deepstrike". Also, if the Icon is not available, the demons can't deploy in the first place, so I also disagree with the interpretation of how the Warp Quake rule effects the Icon in the first place.

Hairs have been split over similar such wording in the past, this is no exception. Does "counts as" or "in the same way as" mean identical all the time? I believe they do not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:Why would they be dead?

They are dead because the CSM summoning rules state that they are destroyed if found to not be within 6" of the Icon.

whitedragon wrote:Hairs have been split over similar such wording in the past, this is no exception. Does "counts as" or "in the same way as" mean identical all the time? I believe they do not.

I sympathize but I think you are probably in the minority with that opinion. And looking at how a lot of the FAQs go, from GW and the INAT, I would assume a FAQ'd ruling is going to come down closer to Nos than otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's hard to tell without the book but does it really say they don't scatter because of the icon or is that a seperate thing attached to the summoning? I guess it depends on how you read the sentence. If it doesn't specifically say they don't scatter because of the icon I guess I could see someone arguing, but I think it's clutching a straws a bit.

whitedragon wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:"in the same way as" Deep Striking means we follow the DS rules except where explicitly told to do otherwise.

I disagree, only because there is no other mechanism in the game by which to be "placed" on the table, they chose to say "in the same way as deepstriking".

I don't think that's correct at all. They have three options- 1. Use the DS rules, which allows you to reference the whole DS section about how exactly you place models, dangerous terrain tests, mishaps, etc. 2.) Make up a whole new, but similar rule (like they did in the 3rd and 4th ed codices). 3) Just say "placed", like they did with a unit coming out of an Exploded vehicle, and be vague about it.

They chose to make it DSing because it's more efficient and consistent.

whitedragon wrote:If they meant for demons to deepstrike, they could have just said "arrive by deepstrike".

They actually do, on page 81. "Lesser Daemons must enter the game by Deep Striking within 6" of an Icon (see the Daemon Summoning rules on page 61 for more details)." So they state it explicitly in one place, and implicitly in another. This is actually handy for demonstrating the point below.

whitedragon wrote:Hairs have been split over similar such wording in the past, this is no exception. Does "counts as" or "in the same way as" mean identical all the time? I believe they do not.

I think this is actually a very important area, and that "counts as" or "in the same way as" absolutely must mean identical, except where otherwise spelled out. A lot of rules work on this basis, because it allows us to reference that other section to fill in additional needed details, just as with Daemons DSing.

whitedragon wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Why would they be dead?

They are dead because the CSM summoning rules state that they are destroyed if found to not be within 6" of the Icon.

They don't say anything of the sort.

Mannahnin wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Why would they be dead?

They are dead because the CSM summoning rules state that they are destroyed if found to not be within 6" of the Icon.

They don't say anything of the sort.

My understanding was that demons could not be deployed unless within 6" of the icon, and if not they were either destroyed or unable to come onto the table. I don't have my CSM codex so I will have to check it later at home.

However, my other point was that the Warp Quake power prevents the Icon from working. My contention originally was that if it doesn't work, then the demons can't deploy because they can't deploy unless an Icon was available. I don't agree that the Icon is still there, just "not working" for not scattering purposes, since the demons can't ever deploy in a situation where they would scatter, it's just not an available option to them.

I will, however, refrain from further posting until I have consulted my CSM codex.

Daemons must be placed within 6" of an icon, and are destroyed if there are no icons in play when they arrive.

I would like to review the wording on Warp Quake to see if I agree with you on icons being completely shut down.

whitedragon wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Why would they be dead?

They are dead because the CSM summoning rules state that they are destroyed if found to not be within 6" of the Icon.

They don't say anything of the sort.

My understanding was that demons could not be deployed unless within 6" of the icon, and if not they were either destroyed or unable to come onto the table. I don't have my CSM codex so I will have to check it later at home.

However, my other point was that the Warp Quake power prevents the Icon from working. My contention originally was that if it doesn't work, then the demons can't deploy because they can't deploy unless an Icon was available. I don't agree that the Icon is still there, just "not working" for not scattering purposes, since the demons can't ever deploy in a situation where they would scatter, it's just not an available option to them.

I will, however, refrain from further posting until I have consulted my CSM codex.

On this point I think you are incorrectly conflating 'not working' with not being available. The rule only cares about the Icon being present, not whether it is functioning. "...within range of an Icon of Chaos..." so if the Icon's ability to suppress scatter is itself being suppressed the Daemons can still arrive, but they may now scatter outside of the 6'' range (and possibly be affected by the Warp Quake).

-Yad

Mannahnin wrote:Daemons must be placed within 6" of an icon, and are destroyed if there are no icons in play when they arrive.

I would like to review the wording on Warp Quake to see if I agree with you on icons being completely shut down.

Yad wrote:On this point I think you are incorrectly conflating 'not working' with not being available. The rule only cares about the Icon being present, not whether it is functioning. "...within range of an Icon of Chaos..." so if the Icon's ability to suppress scatter is itself being suppressed the Daemons can still arrive, but they may now scatter outside of the 6'' range (and possibly be affected by the Warp Quake).

-Yad

So the next question would be....could you then place lesser demons anywhere on the turn that a Warp Quake is active? It seems you are implying that you can. For example, they only "dont scatter" by your reasoning because they are within 6" of the Icon, but if the Icon doesn't work anymore, do Daemons still have to abide by the "within 6 restriction" of an Icon that doesn't work?

Most of the time this is a moot point however as they will mishap the second you try to place them. Unless you are placing the daemons farther way from the grey knights......

I'd like to read the Warp Quake rules verbatim to be sure, but I'm pretty sure Nos has the right reading.

The daemons must be placed within 6" of the icon. If the icon is in the AoE, it no longer prevents them from scattering, so they scatter. If they happen to land within 12" of WQ, they mishap.

Whitedragon - no, they CANNOT be simply placed anywhere; THEIR rule requires them to be placed within 6" of an icon, warp quake has NO effect on this.

ALL warp quake does is stop the Icon from preventing scatter. nothing more. The icon can still physically be measured to, therefore you are still good to deploy them.