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I know for the most part that people don't like to use AS in games. But why is that? What makes the Sentinel such a bad unit?

In a few previous games I've played that are at 2000 points, I tend to use them, mainly because i lacked some models i wanted to run, ie Vendettas. So to fill in the points i took 3 AS with camo cloaks and H-k Missles and plasma cannons. 285 points. And since i had no other fast attack I didn't squadron them. If i used infantry tactics with them, ie taking cover, not standing in the open ect. I found that the few times they where shot at, the 3+ cover save saved them. And with a list with 2 LRBT and 1 Demolisher, and 5 Chimeras with melta or plasma vets in them, my opponents rarely fired at them.

Armoured sentinels are an interasting choice for the ig, one that I have never fielded myself. Generally I would pick scout sentinels, because they can move through cover. With the point being, if theyt are in cover, the covwer save makes up for the lack of armour. Also, because in my army, they have lascanons. They are not a squadron that charges head on into the combat, but rather, one that moves through cover to threaten a tank's rear armour and prove a general annoyance. I fielded armoured sentinels, I would do so in one of these ways.

a)with heavy flamers or similar to deal with infantry based armys. (unlike the scout sentinels, they aren't open topped, so they aren't vulnerable to small arms fire)
b)with plasma cannons, because this is a powerful weapon, that can't be taken by a scout sentinel.
c)in a squad of several sentinels, to run across the board and contest an objective towards the end of the game.(a classic ig tactic: don't capture the objective, but prevent the enemy from doing so)

I use one almost every game with a plasma cannon due to FnP being everywhere now days.

It does quite well and the AV 12 makes it pretty hard to kill. Another ting to note is that it's a pretty cheap compared to a SM dread with a plasma cannon.

They are the perfect unit to tie up infantry.

If the squad doesn't have a PF or PK, they are boned, slowly dying one at a time

Even with a PF, it will take some time to get through an Armored Sentinel, which is just as durable as a dread in close combat (for as little as 55 points).

The term "Bad" in a powerful codex usually equates to not being the most powerful choice for that slot...

Armored Sentinels are great for tying up outflankers... but the Vendetta could move your units, blow up their vehicles and washes your car.

If you don't mind having an unwashed car or washing it yourself, then take the armored sentinels and don't look back.

Also, vendettas are a pain to transport compared to sentinels.

If I was to use armoured (which I don't, I like scout) I would probably have them with just the multilaser or flamer and use them to cover the flanks of my infantry advance, charging threatening units. As it goes though, I use chimeras to much the same effect.

I use an armored sentinel in my mech list.
I have found that is an excellent unit for tar-pitting
It also has a plasma cannon, so it is pretty good against fnp,
light transports, marines, etc.

armoured sentinels are a great unit. however, the best thing about them is very intangable. the front AV of 12 is there best quality. I dont care what you equip them with. I go with the auto cannon on two and missle launcher on the third for my squadron.

the AV 12 on a walker is great. I lost count how many time that i have assaulted into a furioso dreadnought (with blood talons only). i know i cant hurt it, but, it can usualy only glance at best, and that will take a while. also, you can realy tie up hord armies that need assaulting with it.

you can catch alot of opponents off guard with that tactic.

The reason why no armored sentinels is that they put down a TERRIBLE amount of firepower for their points.

I mean, look at an armored sentinel, and then look at a regular chimera. The chimera can't tar pit foolishly commanded infantry, but the chimera is still WAY better.

Don't forget the ability to cross terrain with no fear of grinding to a halt. I'll give it to you it doen't make them awesome, but in a cityfight game it can be nice to run around with armoured sentinel flamers.

There are quite a few game-specific concepts at play here.

For the sake of comparison lets take lascannon armed armored sentinels. What are they 75 points each? And compare them to a vendetta.

As you can see pretty easily, the vendetta gets one lascannon hit per 58 points spent. Whereas the armored sentinel gets one hit per 150 points spent. There is the dismal output that Alairos was referencing.

But quality isn't always about output you say?

Thats true, and a pair of armored sentinels can gain a cover save very easily, and they exist as two armor 12 vehicles, making their survivability more than double that of a vendetta. If you look at vendetta output over the course of a game, and armored sentinel output over the course of a game, their survivability MIGHT account for a smaller differential of output in comparison to the more fragile vendetta.

The armored sentinel also has a potentially useful functionality in locking up 'poorly generalled' non-vehicle models. As aptly put by Alairos.

That is about as far as i can go in defense of the armored sentinel, because there are a couple of other gameplay factors that arise that tip the balance way towards the vendetta.

The first one is pretty simple. In the world of 40k, armor 12 is already quite survivable, its not really necessary to stack a lot more survivability on top of that in most cases, particularly when you can use redundancy to accomplish the same goal. (You can have 9 vendettas if you want them)

And secondly, 40k is a "slippery slope" style of game. Just like in chess, the more you are losing, the easier it is to keep losing. In even simpler terms, front loaded damage is highly valued in 40k. The vendetta is already armor 12, it gains a 4+ cover save from scouting flat out if it doesn't have the first shot, and then, when it does shoot it immediately impacts your opponents ability to ever stop it from continually shooting every turn. Multiply that affect by three (or 6 if you want to include front loaded heavy support artillery in that equation) and that really just seals the deal for the armored sentinel.

In essence, the armored sentinel suffers in a direct comparison in the same way as the leman russes suffer when compared to their cheaper, armor 12 artillery contemporaries.

Now, you want to try something "weird" and rogue? Try to buck the trend of front loaded damage, take nothing but leman russes, units of armored sentinels and large units of infantry with redundant leadership bonuses. Now you are essentially trying to marginalize higher strength lower rate of fire shooting.

But then the relative shortness of 40k comes in to bite you when you try this. That theory would work more in games of infinite turns. Your slower dying, slower killing army would need quite a few turns to turn those margins into victory.

The big problem with Armored Sentinels is they compete directly with Vendettas for fast attack slots which are the best unit in the codex.

If Sentinels could be purchased as part of a Platoon like in the old Guard book they would see more play.

I swap between a Hellhound and 2 x AS w/ plasma cannons in my army. I find the AS, whilst expensive, are very good at a certain number of things.

First and foremost they are the cheapest way to get access to plasma cannons in an IG army. With the recent swell in Terminators (Grey Knights) and with MEQ being a constant presence, plasma cannons are very useful. They are also durable enough to justify the expensive weaponry. Try killing a Dreadnought in cover. Now try killing two Dreadnoughts that can stack all penetrating hits on a single model, leaving the other completely free to act. Yeah, they are pretty damn tough to shft via shooting so maybe you'd want to assault them....

...which leads onto the second biggest advantage AS have over pretty much everything else in the IG dex; the ability to tie up lethal units for pretty much the entire game. Taking the Dreadnought once again as a comparison, try killing not one, but two AV12 walkers with a single power fist/klaw and see how many turns of combat it'll take.

AS are pretty much a direct counter to assault units, which is what the mechanised IG army fears the most. No matter how, *ahem* 'foolishly commanded' an enemy infantry horde may be, there's no way he can both kill your tanks in assault without getting assaulted himself, where he will remain for the entire game.

Sure, a Vendetta is more 'efficient' for its points value, but sometimes there's far more important things than out and out killing power. When 150pts worth of AS can tarpit over 300pts worth of power-blob/Ork mob for 3 turns, whilst simultaneously threatening MEQ with plasma cannons well, I call that a damn useful unit indeed.

L. Wrex

+1 for Lyceaus Wrex's post. At a certain point in an army, you have units that are there for raw power/point, and units that are there because they let you do certain things. Armored sentinels are the latter. They are a unit that can reliably move, get cover, continue to get quality shots, and not give up an easy kill point to assault or shooting. They're sort of like Mortar Squads. Not that good per point, but they have a combination of abilities that some commanders like to have in their tool kit.

In regards to the "poorly generaled" troops concept: Even against a good opponent that won't stupidly throw troops at an assault target they probably won't kill, having an assault bulwark like the AS restricts the number of good moves that a player can take with certain units. The fewer good moves your opponent has the better.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote: try killing not one, but two AV12 walkers with a single power fist/klaw and see how many turns of combat it'll take.

Why can't I 'try' to kill them with a wolf lord with strength 10 power fist, or a unit of assault terminators with thunderhammers? It doesn't suit your example, in my example your walkers DO hold for a player turn, which is a disaster, because then you can't shoot at this threat unit with your special weapons, and then when the threat unit destroys the other sentinel at the end of your own turn, then consolidates into a full move followed by a charge, there is no escaping their vehicle kill.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:AS are pretty much a direct counter to assault units, which is what the mechanised IG army fears the most.

I counter assault units by being a mechanized army with a massive amount of special weapons that can fire safely from firepoints. I don't lose to assault armies, I lose to other gunlines.

The only assault units I am scared of don't get hung up on armored sentinels. (assault terminators, thunderwolf cavalry... things with power fists and storm shields)

Biophysical wrote: They're sort of like Mortar Squads.

That's true, they are sort of like mortar squads. In that they are widely recognized as 'not good'.

Shep wrote:Why can't I 'try' to kill them with a wolf lord with strength 10 power fist, or a unit of assault terminators with thunderhammers? It doesn't suit your example, in my example your walkers DO hold for a player turn, which is a disaster, because then you can't shoot at this threat unit with your special weapons, and then when the threat unit destroys the other sentinel at the end of your own turn, then consolidates into a full move followed by a charge, there is no escaping their vehicle kill.

And this is where theoryhammer falls flat on its face. I counter your quote by saying your Thunderwolf will be nowhere near my army by turn 2/3 as all acceptable firepower will be levelled against it. You then counter that by saying all my long-range firepower will be killed by Long Fangs. I counter that by saying your Long Fangs are no match for my Collosus. You see where I'm going with this?

Of course you can counter one unit with the rock to his scissors, but that's assuming that your opponent is inexperienced enough to allow your uber-hammer-deathstar unit of utter destruction anywhere *near* their assets. As is stands, AS are a decent addition to an army as they not allow provide durable long-range shooting, but also protection to far more vulnerable units (such as tanks) when the enemy get close enough to assault.

Shep wrote:I counter assault units by being a mechanized army with a massive amount of special weapons that can fire safely from firepoints. I don't lose to assault armies, I lose to other gunlines.

What about assault ARMIES? What about DoA BA? Green Tide? Infantry IG? Horde Nids? Would one good round of shooting suffice then? And what if your dice went cold during your shooting? Would you just throw in the towel then and there or is it prudent to include a durable tarpit? Even if it only survives until your next shooting phase it has still sacrificed a minority of your army for a majority of theirs.

Shep wrote:That's true, they are sort of like mortar squads. In that they are widely recognized as 'not good'.

But they still have their place in a well-rounded and well thought out list, should the list demand it.

L. Wrex