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Is it possible to play IG without relying on mass Meltagun spamming and if so, how would you do it?

Spam lascannon instead? But seriously, you need some way to deal with heavy vehicles and monstrous creatures.

Priests.

That or vendetta/lascannon HWS spam.

I agree with your other suggestion, but I feel that priests are a rather expensive and inefficient way to fill the roles of melta weapons.

Aforementioned vendetta and lascannon spam.
Plasma guns, especially when given the BiD order, are excellent against most MCs.
Medusas are absolutely devastating weapons with the bunker buster rounds. They are still quite fragile though.
A manticore is the "jack of all trade, master of actually quite a lot" and also deals with vehicles easily.

Ailaros wrote:Priests.

That or vendetta/lascannon HWS spam.

I read the thread title and thought "Why! Now theres a new idea!"

I think Lascannon spam has a chance, but you need to build your army around a static gunline to get enough in. Here's a go at this:

Troops:
Platoon 1:
1x PCS w/ Lascannon (50)
2x Infantry squads w/ flamers & power weapons (130)
-one with Commissar w/ power weapon (45)
3x Lascannon Heavy Weapon Squads (315)
Total: 540 * 2 = 1080

Two of these platoons gives you 20 lascannons, and its effectiveness is heavily dependent on the sort of metagame in one's area. If people are used to massed armor 11/12 it's probably in good shape, because it will last quite a bit longer than equivalent points in vendettas (once the required scoring units are taken into account). I think any remaining points could do well to be anti horde: 4 griffons wouldn't cost too much and let you pound the hell out of most troops while your two blobs mopped up whatever was left. If you play with an excess of terrain, however, I think you might be screwed anyway. You just can't bring that firepower to bear.

Lascannons, Medusas, LR with Demolisher.

I dont play any meltas... i roll nearly entirely plasma. Manticore, LRBTs, hydras... and vendettas. I like to crack vehicles with the vendettas. Then I crack marines with the artillery.

But seriously, vendettas are where its at.

Ignore them. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease ignore them.

Its a good balance to spam both melta and plasma vets. But I run a kited out executioner, so I only run melta vets to save points.

Problem with spamming lascannons in infantry squads is not very economical and brutally efficient. As IG you should already have enough long range heavy shooters in vendettas, manticores, and etc. THe meltavets in chimeras are there to deal with those landraiders, MCs, and deepstriking termies that got too close to your gun line. TWCs and TH/SS termies are especially pain in the arse, you will need alot of melta torrents to take them out with their 3+ invul saves and/or wound allocation.

So ya... 3 melta/plasma vets in chimeras are the way to go unless you play in a very casual environment with no cookie cutters.

One has to ask the question as to why you would purposefully gimp yourself just to go against the common grain...?

Sure, you can omit melta from an IG army, in much the same way as you can omit darklight weaponry from a DE army. It won't be as good or effective on the table and will lose games it should otherwise have won but yes, you can do it....

L. Wrex

Jaon wrote:I read the thread title and thought "Why! Now theres a new idea!"

Well the reason I asked was simple, I already run Melta-heavy Marines who hide in metal boxes and shoot things so I don't want to build my IG the same way.

Its looking like if I pack enough Lascannons or S9+ ordnance on the table, I can get away without using Melta guns.

Manticores seem like a natural way to start, probably supported by some Demolishers. I might be a little different and replace the Vendettas with Devil Dogs and sprinkle Lascannons throughout the troop section. On that note, would it be worth it to hide a Lascannon PIS inside a Chimera for added protection or just take a 2nd PIS instead?

I loves me Manticores. I've got two of them, and they're Forge World ones so they're BETTER.* They're not bad at taking out tanks, but my Vendies do most of that for me. Devil Dogs are an OK option, but they're not your best bet. I say use them anyway, they're still potentially deadly and you get to have a more unique force, as you said. More likely to weather a little fire too.

minigun762 wrote:On that note, would it be worth it to hide a Lascannon PIS inside a Chimera for added protection or just take a 2nd PIS instead?

I'm having difficulty working out what a PIS is. Explain as you would to a child.

*Not actually better.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:One has to ask the question as to why you would purposefully gimp yourself just to go against the common grain...?

Sure, you can omit melta from an IG army, in much the same way as you can omit darklight weaponry from a DE army. It won't be as good or effective on the table and will lose games it should otherwise have won but yes, you can do it....

L. Wrex

I don't see the comparison at all.

Removing Darklight from a DE list leaves you with: Haywire Blasters, Heat Lances, Fusion Pistols, Haywire Grenades, and MCs/Grots.

Removing Melta from IG leaves you with: Autocannons, Lascannons, Multilasers, LR (almost all variants), Manticores, Basilisks, Medusaes , Plasmaguns, Hydras, Deathstrikes, Demo charges, and even Ogryns/Rough Riders (only listed because I listed Grots).

There's absolutely no comparison, especially when you figure that DE would only have CC in the Heavy Support/Troops, 3 subpar units in the Elites, and 3 FA units for Anti-tank, whereas IG would have... the entire army (still). If you got rid of Melta in an IG army, you can still take anti-vehicle weapons in every slot (and multiple firebases in those slots thanks to dedicated transports/platoons).

Melta doesn't have to be the king of IG. It is expensive, and you can do a lot more damage per turn/per point with Autocannon/Multilaser spam with a few ordnance pieces. DE WWP armies could get away with the low Darklight, but that's it.

Light armour and transports are easily dealt with by autocannons and hydras, heavy armour is more of a problem.

Lascannon HWS are unreliable, inaccurate and overcosted. Vendettas are very good but play better with meltavets stuffed into them.

The best option I can think of is LR Demolisher and Manticore spam, and it might work out quite well.

htj wrote:

minigun762 wrote:On that note, would it be worth it to hide a Lascannon PIS inside a Chimera for added protection or just take a 2nd PIS instead?

I'm having difficulty working out what a PIS is. Explain as you would to a child.

*Not actually better.

Platoon Infantry Squad, I think.

somerandomdude wrote:
I don't see the comparison at all.

Melta is the best tool for killing vehicles. Sure, there are alternatives, such as the ones you listed, but it is the *best tool* for the job. Removing it without any real reason other than trying to buck the trend of the internet is intentionally forfeiting your strongest anti-meching weapon 'just because'. The comparison exists because, for a DE army, darklight is one of their best tools for de-meching opponents. Yes, there are alternatives, but not taking any Ravagers, for example, would be chided as foolish in a competitive environment. You don't see DE not taking Ravagers because darklight populate 99% of DE lists do you?

It comes down to the simple question of why you would purposefully deny yourself access to a very powerful tool. Personally, I don't run tons of meltaguns, I have 6 in my entire 1750 army, and am always lauding the less-noticed aspects of the IG armoury, but it demands a list to be even more carefully built should you choose to go down that path. Melta is plug-and-play and effective, the other choices you listed are not so.

Like I said initially; yes you can omit melta, and yes you can still win games without it, you'll just find it harder than it would otherwise be.

L. Wrex

His point was that IG have plenty of alternatives to Meltaguns. Dark Eldar really don't have a good replacement for Blasters / Dark Lances.

I wouldn't recommned no melta at all, even with all the alternatives. But I also don't think the melta vet spam is the strongest build that can be done.

I usually leave the meltas in my stormtrooper squads and use tanks for my main anti-tank source. The basilisk is a good one to use.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote: Removing it without any real reason other than trying to buck the trend of the internet is intentionally forfeiting your strongest anti-meching weapon 'just because'.
It comes down to the simple question of why you would purposefully deny yourself access to a very powerful tool.

I don't know if you missed it Wrex but my logic for not wanting to go with Meltaguns was less about going against the grain and more about wanting to play something different then guys in metal boxes with Meltaguns as I already do plenty of that with my CSMs.

What my CSMs lack is significant long range firepower so that was more the direction I wanted to go in with IG as an alternative army and playstyle.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

minigun762 wrote:
...wanting to play something different then guys in metal boxes with Meltaguns as I already do plenty of that with my CSMs.

What my CSMs lack is significant long range firepower so that was more the direction I wanted to go in with IG as an alternative army and playstyle.

But your IG will lack any and all CC ability.

Even though the two armies look similar on paper you are going to have to play them very differently to be successful with both.

A nasty thing you can do is have Vets with the demolitions add on. That gives them melta bombs and then put them in vendettas/valks. If you have first turn you can use the scout move to shoot forward and get 12" away then first turn assault several vehicles at once (which haven't moved yet) with one squad and take out a couple of them. it's a nasty alpha strike.

minigun762 wrote:
I don't know if you missed it Wrex but my logic for not wanting to go with Meltaguns was less about going against the grain and more about wanting to play something different then guys in metal boxes with Meltaguns as I already do plenty of that with my CSMs.

What my CSMs lack is significant long range firepower so that was more the direction I wanted to go in with IG as an alternative army and playstyle.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

Well then that is your personal preference... No point making a thread about it, and then have people telling yout it is not very optimal... almost like trollin. And seeing most of the topics you started on this tactic forums are about simple IG stuff. IG codex came out long time ago, what works and doesnt work at a competitive level has already been figured out, you just have to research it.

@minigun: Although i do disagree with the hostility from some users you didn't exactly follow the rules for posting as stated in the 40K Tactics Posting guidelines - READ THIS FIRST sticky but not very many people do so most users can't really call you on it. I don't mean to be rude, just helpful.
Maybe you should now list the options you have narrowed it down to so we can help you make a decision.

Peace Out!
Jonny!

SonsofVulkan wrote:Well then that is your personal preference... No point making a thread about it, and then have people telling yout it is not very optimal... almost like trollin. And seeing most of the topics you started on this tactic forums are about simple IG stuff.

Fair enough. I didn't mean it to come across as trolling. I was trying to find the most competitive way to play the army I want to play and while there is a great deal of advice and tactics out there, it tends to direct the player towards the same basic army layouts because the concensus is that they are the best. I completely understand that but I also firmly believe that at the end of the day, its each person's money and time that is going into their army and they should be able to play the army they want as well as they can.

No hard feelings, I appreciate what you have to say, I just wanted to make my intentions clear.

RubberJonny wrote:@minigun: Although i do disagree with the hostility from some users you didn't exactly follow the rules for posting as stated in the 40K Tactics Posting guidelines - READ THIS FIRST sticky but not very many people do so most users can't really call you on it. I don't mean to be rude, just helpful.

Thanks for the reminder Rubber, I did read those when I first joined but that was a while ago so a refresher was useful. I'll try to better articulate my future posts.

The most important question hasn't been asked: What's in your meta?

In my meta, I've seen a Land Raider probably about three or four games. One of the games had two. My seven melta guns (two Stormtroopers units, one PCS with 3x Melta) had no problem. Against other vehicles they're nice, but so are my Hydras and Vendettas and 4x Plasma CCS.

I could probably do a list without melta and not be too worried based on my meta. I would lose some alpha-strike ability, but the points spent on the melta squads would be spent on other units to cover that weakness.

Ultimately, you only *need* melta for Land Raiders. Other vehicles can be taken out with side or rear shots by other weapons. Even then, the only things with AV 14 are support units. If you can take out the rest of the list, there's only so much they can do against you.

The Leman Russ variants can put out some damage, but most of them can be countered by spacing your troops out to a coherency donut (see Ailaros' batreps). Large blasts can't do much if you don't let it.

Land Raiders are mainly scary because they carry evil, evil CC units. If you're prepared, you can have a blob ready to eat them, or a sacrificial unit reay to leave their rears hanging in the wind for your shooing phase.

Basically, yes, you can play without Meltas. You have to make sure that a) you've still got enough other anti-tank to cover the role b) your meta isn't chock full of AV 14 and c) you're prepared to handle or mitigate the high AV threats if you can't kill them.

minigun762 wrote:

SonsofVulkan wrote:Well then that is your personal preference... No point making a thread about it, and then have people telling yout it is not very optimal... almost like trollin. And seeing most of the topics you started on this tactic forums are about simple IG stuff.

Fair enough. I didn't mean it to come across as trolling. I was trying to find the most competitive way to play the army I want to play and while there is a great deal of advice and tactics out there, it tends to direct the player towards the same basic army layouts because the concensus is that they are the best. I completely understand that but I also firmly believe that at the end of the day, its each person's money and time that is going into their army and they should be able to play the army they want as well as they can.

No hard feelings, I appreciate what you have to say, I just wanted to make my intentions clear.

No hard feelings at all. And no one is forcing you or anyone to netlist the same ole cookie cutter IG lists out there. You make the army base on your preference and play style is good. But alot of various IG builds(foot blobs, hybrid, mech and etc) has already been tested countless times in live play and on vassal. Like you said there is a general consensus about whats good(all-comer) and by making a thread on this forum, you know you will get those general advices from people. I understand that if you were hoping for people to give you enough support about your own idea/intentions(of your preference) to boost enough confidence in you to shell out money to buy the models you want. But that isnt how things work, people will give you honest advices and most of the time their advices will not match your preference.

And yes alot of it depends on the meta... but against meq/teq/MC, the best "infantry weapon" for the guard is obviously still plasma/meltas. And you will see TEQs/MEQs in almost every FLGS metas across the country. So assuming you run 5 vet squads, you give each squad lascannon upgrades instead of 3 meltas or plasmas. And your opponent runs a squad of 5x TH/SS, would you rather have 5 ap2 shots at them or 15? Ok what about TWCs(4-5 men squad)? They have T5 with 2W each so neither lascannons, meltas, plasmas will ID them, so would you rather have 5 shots at them or 15? Even against a basic 10 men tactical squad, you want higher volume of fire. So why do you think meltavets in chimeras are so popular... they have the flexibility to deal with almost all types of threats(AV14, teq, meq, MC) in whatever metas or FLGS you decide to goto. And yes you can avoid meltavets and put points elsewhere to boost anti-AV, meqs, teqs, MC), but remember you are only allow 3 FS and 3 HS slots, there is only so much you can do to boost your capabilities outside of your troop slots. The key is making your whole army look dangerous and target saturate.

minigun762 wrote:[Its looking like if I pack enough Lascannons or S9+ ordnance on the table, I can get away without using Melta guns.

At 2000 pts, for anti-AV14 I've got 7 lascannons (1 CCS, 2x HWS), Devil Dog, Basilisk, LRD and LRBT with lascannons. I've got another layer of anti-armour with one ML HWS and one AC HWS, then the 2-3 chimeras and 10 GL's provide yet another. 5 HB's and tons of frag grenades round it out. I don't feel I need meltaguns, but I do plan them for expanding to 2500.

minigun762 wrote:I was trying to find the most competitive way to play the army I want to play and while there is a great deal of advice and tactics out there, it tends to direct the player towards the same basic army layouts because the concensus is that they are the best. I completely understand that but I also firmly believe that at the end of the day, its each person's money and time that is going into their army and they should be able to play the army they want as well as they can.

I've come across this issue alot, given the army I run. Some of us want to talk about the tactics of 'suboptimal' units.

Itll probably sound like a broken record but hey thats what dakkas for right? Anyways, i used to make it a goal to try and produce IG armies that could conteract anything that got thrown at them, especially since MEQ's are a very popular army,(at least where im from) i had to think that at least 75% of marine armies would have LR's or some other variation. In this case two options came to mind, Vendettas or vets W/ Melta. not to throw salt on wounds but i honestly couldnt come up with a cheaper anti-AV14 unti that can still be useful against something else.

Mind you there are manticores, LRBT's etc. but a Ved W/ TL-lascannons or Vets with melta, IMO, seemed more useful.

Something else to think about is scout sentinels with lascan"s. I know running them would require you to heft a smalle sum, but the vendetta would be cheaper and they carry TL-Lascan's

LR-vanquishers are good anti-armor, but still have only a 50/50 chance of hitting and its only one shot with no reroll

LR-Demolishers are good at tank patrol as well, but ive played a few games where the scatter basically left me to hang

In a way, you can produce a few units that can fill the gap left by no-melta, but I Really dont see another way around it. unless, and this is for you vets of dakka and 40K, i seem to be out of my mind. then i will gladly admit that im wrong and choke back my response. but ill have to grin and bear it