Librarians a "Must" in GK lists

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**gpfunk**

Just a simple question that I have been running through my head. When I first read about librarians, I wasn't too thrilled. They seemed a little underwhelming in the space marines codex. However, in the GK codex I find myself getting more and more excited about them. The simple amount of support that they bring to an army is astounding. And some of the powers are almost broken! Quicksilver, might of the titan...with all this in mind, why would one not choose to have a librarian as an HQ choice? Considering they've comprably priced fro what you get, especially in higher point games?

**yermom**

Being in termie armor makes it harded than you would think to find a place to put them in a standard msu lst. That forces you to change the whole style of the army. They're also expensive.

**Blackmoor**

I played in a tournament with a librarian and I really like the utility that he brings.

On the other hand I really like Grandmasters to increase my troops, and Inquisitors to bring in their units.

So it is not an HQ that you automatic include, but one of several good choices.

**Grey Templar**

they are certaintly a useful HQ, especially in a list that expects to be taking alot of fire.

Shrouding can give your Vehicles an easy 3+ cover and the same for advancing infantry.

they are very useful when shielding terminators. the 3+ cover can fill the void by the army not getting Storm Shields.

PA dudes benifit too as there are plenty of AP2 and 3 Shots they can take too. you can also go to ground if needed and get a 2+ cover.

Quicksilver is also very useful when fighting High Inititive enemies that can wound you reliably. Incubi for example. it allows you to get your blows in first and possably win the fight with no casualities.

Might of Titan and Hammerhand also mean your regular dudes with nothing but their force weapons can rip apart battletanks. Str6 with 2d6 armor penetration is quite deadly.

Warprift is fun. auto-penetrates against vehicles is a nice power as Librarians in previous codices didn't have a decent anti-tank power aside from Vortex of Doom(which is a fairly risky power)

**Kingsley**

If you think Librarians in Codex: Space Marines are bad, I honestly don't know what to say.

**Grey Templar**

Librarians are great in all codices except for possably DAs(they still have some fairly useless powers), but are great HQs elsewhere.

in the vanilla codex, i almost always take a Libby unless i am running a Chaplain or Pedro Kantor.

**schadenfreude**

If a list has crowe, cortez, or another special character it only has room for 1 more HQ. Now it's a hard choice between a GM or libby.

If a list already has a GM adding a librarian is easily going to push HQs over 400 points in an army that already has model count problems.

Quick silver and might of titan are cool against infantry, but rerolls to hit is better. If you already wound the other side on a 3+ on I6 then wounding them on a 2+ on I10 is nowhere near as good as wounding them on a 3+ on I6 with rerolls to hit. If the goal is to create a deathstar or make a regular hit harder a botherhood champion does the job better than a librarian for about half the cost.

All of the being said GK librarians are absolutely badass, but I'm not going to say they are a must have. The bottom line is GK HQ slots are more competitive than Tyanid elite slots.

**Grey Templar**

the GM only makes them reroll 1s.

**schadenfreude**

Was talking about the brotherhood champion giving them rerolls to hit, not the GM's rerolling 1's

**Grey Templar**

ok,

I don't know why you would take a BC unless you were saving points.

**schadenfreude**

Grey Templar wrote:ok,

I don't know why you would take a BC unless you were saving points.

Against T4 GK will usually wound on a 3+ with hammerhand.

GK already hit on a 4+ and wound on a 3+......so hitting on a 4+ with a reroll to hit>Hitting on a 4+ and wounding on a 2+.

The brotherhood champion's rerolls to hit is actually the best force multiplier GK can receive against a T4 opponent.

**gpfunk**

I was under the impression that the brotherhood champ only allows you to reroll a hit on the first round of a combat. Meaning you assault, and for that one round you reroll to hit, but never again. If that is true, then that is awesome.

I just think initiative 10 strength 10 daemonhammers with an extra d6 of armor penetration sounds pretty silly good.

But that you all for your comments, its actually quite insightful. And it is true, the choice between a GM and a libby is tough. I probably would take the GM in lower point games, but I don't think there is anything that should stop you from taking them in higher point games like 2000+.

**notabot187**

Grey Templar wrote:ok,

I don't know why you would take a BC unless you were saving points.

Man, I've been using Inquisitors to save points. I don't like spending any points for HQs, so been using a cheap xenos or maleus inquisitor. Did use a BC one time, wasn't too impressed for the same reasons why I'm not impressed with chaplains in vanilla marines.

As for taking a librarian, I don't have any use for him since I've been running MSU grey knights in razors + interceptors. The one unit of paladins I run has been a cheap 5 man cannon battery, so I don't want to spend more to make it better. I've used a GM mostly to stretch my limited model collection to play at higher points (and have more scoring units).

**wuestenfux**

Generally, psychic protection is very important for an all-comers list.
Moreover, the GK Librarian is a decent support character if equipped with the right powers.
So yes, I'd take him in larger games.
In games up to 1500 pts I'd hesitate and take just 1 HQ (Crowe, Corteaz or an Inquisitor are eventually better here).

**Grey Templar**

gpfunk wrote:I was under the impression that the brotherhood champ only allows you to reroll a hit on the first round of a combat. Meaning you assault, and for that one round you reroll to hit, but never again. If that is true, then that is awesome.

I just think initiative 10 strength 10 daemonhammers with an extra d6 of armor penetration sounds pretty silly good.

But that you all for your comments, its actually quite insightful. And it is true, the choice between a GM and a libby is tough. I probably would take the GM in lower point games, but I don't think there is anything that should stop you from taking them in higher point games like 2000+.

Deamonhammers are still Thunderhammers and as such ALWAYS strike at I1.

they do become Str10 with the use of Hammerhand and Might of Titan gives the additional D6.

**schadenfreude**

Draigo, Regular GM, Librarian, Crowe, Brotherhood champion, Coteaz, Xenos inquistor, and the Maleus inquisitor are all widely respected HQ choices. With 8 good choices GK HQ slots are very competitive. I just don't see any 1 particular HQ choice that stands out as an absolute must have, even Coteaz, Crowe, and Draigo are not absolute "must have" units because it's perfectly possible to build a competitive GK list without purifiers as troops, paladins or troops, or hordes of henchmen.

There are just too many good combinations with the GK codex to label any single HQ as the "must have"

**ColdSadHungry**

I have to admit, I've been thinking of taking an ordo malleus inquisitor with a daemonblade to just tack onto a squad for a bit of extra oomph and the inquisitors can take servo skulls which are actually very useful.

**ph34r**

GK Librarians are power powerful, but vanilla Librarians are more competitive.

**Jaon**

EEEUURURGH! I hate all the choices! I have been running a 230 points GM (I know its steep but he rolfstomps everything) with Rad & Psychotroke, and he is, I believe, a way bigger force multiplier than a BroChamp. Its even made me consider adding an Ordo Xenos Inq. with R&P grenades to put in my purifier squad, they are just that good. ID'ing swarms (coz rad lowers them to toughness 2) and being able to ID Trygons with daemonhammers! (Reducing toughness to 5 and splattering them with a Hammerhand DH) is just great!... Ignoring the fact all GK have force weapons...

I cant justify taking a lone librarian in a 1500 point game, both because of the loss of Grand Strategy, which is essential when you only have roughly 35 guys on table, and because librarians, even in a squad, are very fragile. 2 wounds isnt so great and no iron halo is worse