Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I just had a simple question for all you Apoc veterans out there.


On page 23 of the Apoc rulebook it states that "Units that can Deep Strike may enter play using the Deep Strike rules on the turn that they are committed to battle, or choose to enter via a table edge."

Does this mean I could walk on a unit of Terminators or say a Bloodthirster from any table edge instead of Deepstriking them?

If this is so this would be quite beardy as Daemons could get off some OP first turn assaults.

Needs to go in YMDC

It does not say "any" table edge, only "a" table edge. I think that it's referring to the usual way that units in reserves enter play. Essentially saying "Units that can Deep Strike may enter play via Deep Strike or may deploy in the usual way that units in reserves enter play"

Does not "a" imply any?

Compare these two sentences:

"Would you like a pop?"

"Would you like any pop?"

Both of these imply that any pop available may be given.


I agree about the YMDC part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xarian wrote:Needs to go in YMDC

It does not say "any" table edge, only "a" table edge. I think that it's referring to the usual way that units in reserves enter play. Essentially saying "Units that can Deep Strike may enter play via Deep Strike or may deploy in the usual way that units in reserves enter play"

I agree with you that RAI it should be what you say but RAW it is not the same. I don't think I would try and abuse this wording though as that would be pretty cheesy.


PS: Admin, could you please put this in YMDC. I was incorrect in my forum thread placement.

Anyone with an answer? This as RAW would probably make Daemons game-breakingly good for 1st turn assaults.

Vache Glace wrote:I just had a simple question for all you Apoc veterans out there.


On page 23 of the Apoc rulebook it states that "Units that can Deep Strike may enter play using the Deep Strike rules on the turn that they are committed to battle, or choose to enter via a table edge."

Does this mean I could walk on a unit of Terminators or say a Bloodthirster from any table edge instead of Deepstriking them?

If this is so this would be quite beardy as Daemons could get off some OP first turn assaults.

No, or the be no point to one of the strategic assets.

Noir wrote:

Vache Glace wrote:I just had a simple question for all you Apoc veterans out there.


On page 23 of the Apoc rulebook it states that "Units that can Deep Strike may enter play using the Deep Strike rules on the turn that they are committed to battle, or choose to enter via a table edge."

Does this mean I could walk on a unit of Terminators or say a Bloodthirster from any table edge instead of Deepstriking them?

If this is so this would be quite beardy as Daemons could get off some OP first turn assaults.

No, or the be no point to one of the strategic assets.

Ah, but there was no codex: Daemons at the time of Apocalypse therefore such a rules conundrum was brought up over time and not considered in it's original incarnation.

To which asset are you referring?

Because an asset isn't very good does not mean that the RAW text is invalidated.

Vache Glace wrote:

Noir wrote:

Vache Glace wrote:I just had a simple question for all you Apoc veterans out there.


On page 23 of the Apoc rulebook it states that "Units that can Deep Strike may enter play using the Deep Strike rules on the turn that they are committed to battle, or choose to enter via a table edge."

Does this mean I could walk on a unit of Terminators or say a Bloodthirster from any table edge instead of Deepstriking them?

If this is so this would be quite beardy as Daemons could get off some OP first turn assaults.

No, or the be no point to one of the strategic assets.

Ah, but there was no codex: Daemons at the time of Apocalypse therefore such a rules conundrum was brought up over time and not considered in it's original incarnation.

To which asset are you referring?

Because an asset isn't very good does not mean that the RAW text is invalidated.

FLANK MARCH, "The strategic reserves under the command of the player that chose this asset may enter play from any and all table edges."

Vache Glace wrote:Anyone with an answer? This as RAW would probably make Daemons game-breakingly good for 1st turn assaults.

No it wouldn't. Your reading only works because you completely ignore the first two thirds of the paragraph, and then quote the last the last third completely out of context. The RAW answer is clear. Go back and read the rule again, but pay attention to the whole thing this time.

Noir wrote:

FLANK MARCH, "The strategic reserves under the command of the player that chose this asset may enter play from any and all table edges."

That lists Strategic Reserves (which includes models that cannot DS) whereas the second section which I quoted is only models entering play via DS rules. There are a bunch of armies that do not have access to insane amounts of DSing units hence why they would want to choose Flank March. (like CSM, IG, etc.)

Vache Glace wrote:

Noir wrote:

FLANK MARCH, "The strategic reserves under the command of the player that chose this asset may enter play from any and all table edges."

That lists Strategic Reserves (which includes models that cannot DS) whereas the second section which I quoted is only models entering play via DS rules. There are a bunch of armies that do not have access to insane amounts of DSing units hence why they would want to choose Flank March. (like CSM, IG, etc.)

You can only have unit deployed on the table or in STRATEGIC RESERVE. Read the rules for deploying.

Bookwrack wrote:No it wouldn't. Your reading only works because you completely ignore the first two thirds of the paragraph, and then quote the last the last third completely out of context. The RAW answer is clear. Go back and read the rule again, but pay attention to the whole thing this time.

Uh, I reread the whole section and I don't see anything supporting your side of the argument. The part I quoted specifically mentions Deepstriking units whereas the first part mentions reserves in general. Generally specific>general.

Daemonic Assault does conflict a bit with "Turn One: No units may be committed" but then again codex>apoc book.

I agree that it's RAI that you should not be able to (and I won't play that I can walk on from the edge) but I think I have a ledge to stand on regarding my idea.

PS: please no raging. I'm not trying to be TFG I'm just pointing out something in the rules.

You can only have unit deployed on the table or in STRATEGIC RESERVE. Read the rules for deploying.

Again, Codex trumps rulebook.

Vache Glace wrote:
Again, Codex trumps rulebook.

Wrong, biggest mistake player make in 40K.

Specific over general.


Apocalypse only allow on table or Strategic Reserve, period.

Vache Glace wrote:I agree that it's RAI that you should not be able to (and I won't play that I can walk on from the edge) but I think I have a ledge to stand on regarding my idea.

You do not. Please reread the last paragraph on page 23. The whole thing this time. You'll see why you're wrong if you do.

Noir wrote:

Vache Glace wrote:
Again, Codex trumps rulebook.

Wrong, biggest mistake player make in 40K.

Specific over general.


Apocalypse only allow on table or Strategic Reserve, period.

Look at the Planetstrike FAQ:

Q. If a unit has a rule that makes exception to the normal Reserves rule (such as Daemonic Assault, Deathwing Assault, Drop Pod Assault, and so on), how does that interact with the ‘Scramble!’ rule and chart?

A. In general, we say that the rules in codexes trump all other rules. So, if a unit specifies when they enter play in their Codex, follow the rules of the Codex rather than those in the Planetstrike expansion book. For example, Daemonic Assault works as normal...

I realize this is planetstrike but this is showing that a specific codex rule (Daemonic Assault) trumps a general rulebook rule (Strategic Reserves)


You response is not answering my question. i.e. specific Chaos Daemon assault rules The part I'm discussing is whether or not DSing units can walk in from a table edge I'm not arguing about the Daemonic assault rule.

Vache Glace wrote:

Noir wrote:

Vache Glace wrote:
Again, Codex trumps rulebook.

Wrong, biggest mistake player make in 40K.

Specific over general.


Apocalypse only allow on table or Strategic Reserve, period.

Look at the Planetstrike FAQ:

Q. If a unit has a rule that makes exception to the normal Reserves rule (such as Daemonic Assault, Deathwing Assault, Drop Pod Assault, and so on), how does that interact with the ‘Scramble!’ rule and chart?

A. In general, we say that the rules in codexes trump all other rules. So, if a unit specifies when they enter play in their Codex, follow the rules of the Codex rather than those in the Planetstrike expansion book. For example, Daemonic Assault works as normal...

I realize this is planetstrike but this is showing that a specific codex rule (Daemonic Assault) trumps a general rulebook rule (Strategic Reserves)


You response is not answering my question. i.e. specific Chaos Daemon assault rules The part I'm discussing is whether or not DSing units can walk in from a table edge I'm not arguing about the Daemonic assault rule.

First Planetsrike and Apoc aren't the same game. Second did you notice the part "in general". Third they both have completelly differnt rules for deploying, hell Planetstrike give every attacker unit Deep Strike.

And what part of my post was about Daemonic assault rules, its all been about every DS units.

Bookwrack wrote:

Vache Glace wrote:I agree that it's RAI that you should not be able to (and I won't play that I can walk on from the edge) but I think I have a ledge to stand on regarding my idea.

You do not. Please reread the last paragraph on page 23. The whole thing this time. You'll see why you're wrong if you do.

Which part do you disagree with? The table edge part? I see the table edges in their side's deployment zone only part but the next sentence gives a specific example of using DS to come on from reserves using A table edge. It does not say anything about using only your own edges in the second sentence.

Your interpretation would be like saying "Melta weapons can't do 2D6 to pen because earlier in the rulesbook they said that weapons only get a singe D6 to pen vs. vehicles."

Vache Glace wrote:
Your interpretation would be like saying "Melta weapons can't do 2D6 to pen because earlier in the rulesbook they said that weapons only get a singe D6 to pen vs. vehicles."

Specific over general.

Wrong again. Read the last paragraph on page 23. Please.

The first sentences describe which table edges a unit may enter from when being committed to battle, with the example showing that there potentially will be more than one.

Your method ONLY works if you take the last part of the paragraph in isolation, ignoring the preceding sentence which tells you which edges are legal to enter from.

Noir wrote:
First Planetsrike and Apoc aren't the same game. Second did you notice the part "in general". Third they both have completelly differnt rules for deploying, hell Planetstrike give every attacker unit Deep Strike.

And what part of my post was about Daemonic assault rules, its all been about every DS units.

First Planetsrike and Apoc aren't the same game
I admitted that they weren't the same. This is rules conjecture, call it precedent.

Second did you notice the part "in general".
Is there a reason why the specific (one army, one codex, very different) Daemonic Assault rules should be overruled by the general (applies to all armies) Apoc rules?

Third they both have completelly differnt rules for deploying, hell Planetstrike give every attacker unit Deep Strike.
I wasn't comparing the two I was just trying to show how specific>general.

And what part of my post was about Daemonic assault rules, its all been about every DS units
We've been arguing about whether or not Daemonic assault trumps Strategic Reserves not whether units that can DS in apoc can enter from a table edge (which is the point of the thread)


Vache Glace wrote:
Your interpretation would be like saying "Melta weapons can't do 2D6 to pen because earlier in the rulesbook they said that weapons only get a singe D6 to pen vs. vehicles."

Specific over general.

Wow, I stated that it would be his implied interpretation. I'm starting to think that you are trolling me.

Vache Glace wrote:
And what part of my post was about Daemonic assault rules, its all been about every DS units
We've been arguing about whether or not Daemonic assault trumps Strategic Reserves not whether units that can DS in apoc can enter from a table edge (which is the point of the thread)

Lets say it dose, now unlike every army in Apoc you now have to roll to get your reserves. So you just made Deamons even worse.

Bookwrack wrote:Wrong again. Read the last paragraph on page 23. Please.

The first sentences describe which table edges a unit may enter from when being committed to battle, with the example showing that there potentially will be more than one.

Your method ONLY works if you take the last part of the paragraph in isolation, ignoring the preceding sentence which tells you which edges are legal to enter from.

I see where you are coming from and I thank you for your interpretation.

Why then would the specific DSing rules in the second sentence mention only mention a table edge instead of only your own? I think this is just a contextual oversight by the writers of the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Noir wrote:

Vache Glace wrote:
And what part of my post was about Daemonic assault rules, its all been about every DS units
We've been arguing about whether or not Daemonic assault trumps Strategic Reserves not whether units that can DS in apoc can enter from a table edge (which is the point of the thread)

Lets say it dose, now unlike every army in Apoc you now have to roll to get your reserves. So you just made Deamons even worse.

There is no consesus on Daemonic assault but what I've played it as is that you have to rolll for your preferred wave for turn 1. After that you follow regular reserves rules (which in this case would be the strategic reserves rule)

PS: Thank you to whomever moved this to YMDC

I realize I'm not contributing to the overall argument, but i thought I would post this for the OP (and I didnt see that any one else had). the BRB specifically states a Codex takes precedence . (pg. 62 bottom of the smoke launchers paragraph). If everyone got this but me and I'm just being captain obvious, then i apologize!

aderdere wrote:I realize I'm not contributing to the overall argument, but i thought I would post this for the OP (and I didnt see that any one else had). the BRB specifically states a Codex takes precedence . (pg. 62 bottom of the smoke launchers paragraph). If everyone got this but me and I'm just being captain obvious, then i apologize!

That rule only concerns smoke launchers. Mind you that "Dark Angel smoke launchers" are more specific than "smoke launchers".

For the OP: Strategic reserves may arrive from any table edge in your deployment zone. As apocalypse tables are some times T or even H-shaped you might many table edges in your deployment zone, but even on a regular rectangular table, those are at least two edges, thus "a table edge". Deep striking does not lift this restriction from arriving from reserves, so you'd still not be able to appear behind your enemy without the flank march strategic asset.

The standard deployment zone in Apoc has more than one edge.

That's why the rule says "a" table edge.

Scott-S6 wrote:The standard deployment zone in Apoc has more than one edge.

That's why the rule says "a" table edge.

I believe this to be the correct interpretation.

However, the implied generalization of "A" does not necessarily preclude your opponent's edges. That's basically what I was discussing.

Again, I'm not going to try to play the cheese way or try to TFG my way into it I'm just thinking if someone else brought it up I would need a reasonable defence.

It has to be a Legal table edge though, as specified in the paragraphs before the one you keep quoting (as stated before).

It's not even the paragraphs before - its the same paragraph, the sentence right in front of the one he refers to.

The standard deployment zone on a rectangular or square table you would most likely play upon for Apoc would have three edges. If you did a straight corner-to-corner deployment you would have two edges.

I would not allow you to bring the elements of your army in Apoc reserve from ANY table edge. I would only allow you to bring them on from an edge of your side of the table.

You could only bring your reserve on from ANY side if you used Flank March.

Vache Glace wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:The standard deployment zone in Apoc has more than one edge.

That's why the rule says "a" table edge.

I believe this to be the correct interpretation.

However, the implied generalization of "A" does not necessarily preclude your opponent's edges. That's basically what I was discussing.

Again, I'm not going to try to play the cheese way or try to TFG my way into it I'm just thinking if someone else brought it up I would need a reasonable defence.

The context makes it perfectly clear that in this case(and actually never, as far as my English knowledge is concerned) "a" is not equal to "any". "A" allows you to arrive from a table edge you are allowed to arrive from. "Any" explicitly allows you to arrive from all table edges.