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 Jidmah wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
I'm guessing we really need the day one FAQ but do we know what sort of cover the myphitic blighthauler will grant? I'm inclined to say it really should be dense cover rather than light or heavy. Would mean his buff becomes -1 to hit and would presumably stack with +1 save from light cover ruins etc.
Will make the little trucks pretty useful no?

This has been solved by the way - the rare rules section specifies that rules providing the benefit of cover despite not being terrain counts as light terrain.

So +1 armor it is, and no stacking with other terrain.

Where specifically are you seeing this? Just want to have it to hand on case anyone questions it in a game. Thanks in advance.

 lare2 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
I'm guessing we really need the day one FAQ but do we know what sort of cover the myphitic blighthauler will grant? I'm inclined to say it really should be dense cover rather than light or heavy. Would mean his buff becomes -1 to hit and would presumably stack with +1 save from light cover ruins etc.
Will make the little trucks pretty useful no?

This has been solved by the way - the rare rules section specifies that rules providing the benefit of cover despite not being terrain counts as light terrain.

So +1 armor it is, and no stacking with other terrain.

Where specifically are you seeing this? Just want to have it to hand on case anyone questions it in a game. Thanks in advance.

The rule book has a "rare rules" section specifically handling this.

@ Tycho

That is interesting.

The temptation with PMs is to go all-in and field large foot-slogging squads. According to other feedbacks, this is not very efficient, all things considered.

A better alternative may be that of running smaller squads in rhinos + supporting characters.

Did you give the rhinos DR? And how many plague bearers did you summon?

Mini Wargamming did a 9th ed battle rep with DG vs Mechanicus using a large footslogging DG horde style army. The DG player played them really poorly admittedly (never watched one of their battle reports before but I got the feeling he was newish to the game the way he used the DG), but it illustrated perfectly why A. Foot slogging DG will be a tough go, and B. Mechanicus is poised to be a top army.

The huge horde of marines took half the game to get to center table where they got promptly and easily shot clean off the board. The DG player didn't have enough units to claim objectives and what he did have was ungodly slow. The Mechanicus player had a gun castle in a corner and a bunch of MSU obsec squads running around the board to get the objectives (of which, he claimed most AND hit his secondaries).

In my few games of 9th using the DG, I would definitely say that if you want obsec, it's PMs in Rhinos with character support. Anything else (anything w/obsec that is) is too slow. Even if your fleshmowers and winged DPs succeed in pushing someone off an objective, you still need to claim as many others as possible, and heaven help you if you are footslogging AND going second. That's probably pretty close to an auto-lose in my opinion.

I did not give the Rhinos DR. I just needed them to live long enough to get the PMs close enough to objectives (which they generally did), and I really only summoned about 20 demons. Nothing crazy. Played about 10 games of 9th now, and I find that if you go first, get two or three objectives turn 1 and hold them through 2, it's almost impossible for your opponent to catch up, so I really only need just enough obsec to keep holding at least two for two turns. Then it gets really hard for the other player to come back the way these get scored.

EDIT:
Interesting side note, I've found myself more willing to let people target things like my DPs so far. Like throwing a DP/Fleshmower combo at them immediately, and popping Cloud of Flies on one of my Rhinos while trying to use cover to protect the other Rhino (as much as possible) with terrain. So that's been fun. It's definitely shifted my play style which is kind of cool.

Are predators still garbage competitively? I notice they clock in under 12 Wounds so its only 1CP per for DR - also with some of the changes to hit modifiers the worst a predator will shoot at is 4+ (prior to degrading) whereas before it was stacking lightning fast reflexes and every negative hit modifer under the sun. Finally, the lack of an invul is hamstringing as they are just magnets for big guns which all have -4 or higher AP and blow them off the table in one turn - but the Noxious blightbringer has a relic for a 5++ => I think the math makes the unit 100% more wounds when combined with the DR.

If you go first and manage to keep the predators relatively close DG also have a nice strat for the +1 W +1 D against vehicles in a more 'elite' meta. Finally, Predator price went up below the average (13%) for the new addition. Alongside a decrease in lascannon cost to 20 points from 25... If we compare the 'new' cost of the predator I think it clocks in at 175 points (including havoc launcher) for 4 lascannons - compared with havocs which for much fewer wounds, lower toughness, etc. come out to a 'new' cost of 165(?) for 4 lascannons, maybe intriguing.

Another way of looking at this is that entropy cannon PBC is 160 (i think) for 2 shots at 4+ (although of course comes with the benefit of the blast weapon mortar and being 8T with DR and invul built in).

A layer to consider is if possible to fit the 'plague' pistol in at 15 inches it only needs to hit (not wound) - maybe off a deepstriking unit to give lascannons rerolls to 1?

Despite all this not convinced yet (shows the dire state of predators - also the investment of a relic and 3 CP up front on top of the points) but i'm wondering if maybe there is a place for quad lascannon predators for DG where traditionally have struggled for anti-vehc?

Be interested to see your lists Tycho? With all the options we now have I'm struggling to make it all fit!

Be interested to see your lists Tycho? With all the options we now have I'm struggling to make it all fit!

My DG games were played at the "New 2000" so it's like *roughly* 1850 in 8th ed points. They all center around 2 PM squads in Rhinos with either Plague surgeon and FBS or Psyker and FBS. Then the classic Winged DP and two Flesh Mowers which feels so far like it still works really well. That's pretty much the core, then I'm building the rest around counters to threats.

So last game, knowing I'd be playing shooty mechanicus I saved a bunch 'o points for demon summoning to get a screen. I've also played with multiple crawlers which are still good but honestly, I feel like I'm preferring more and more to run MORE flesh mowers and fewer mortars. This edition so far is pretty much "40k meets Taladega Nights" and it's all about that speed.

EDIT:

Meant to add, if I get more time later I'll plug the list in!

The guys playing in the MWG batrep are both old time players of their respective factions... but compared to what other people are doing, MWGs batreps have not been great for ages now.

On topic: thoughts on footslogging Blightlord Terminators for one flank? Slow on one, fast on the other... might be fast enough overall? I feel DS with them is too risky, at least against competent opponents.

Given the 4" move and half advance I don't see much value in footslogging blightlords. I take a unit now and will continue to do so in 9th, in fact, probably even more often in 9th.

Deepstrike has two uses now in 9th that will be critical. First is to grab a home objective you either lost or you need to reinforce. Second use is to go bully an enemy's backfield objective they left a crappy unit on or even just to force them to turn around and deal with them.

They can shoot, they can CC, and they are super durable. But footslogging is a great way to waste them IMHO.

The guys playing in the MWG batrep are both old time players of their respective factions... but compared to what other people are doing, MWGs batreps have not been great for ages now.

Wow ...

On topic: thoughts on footslogging Blightlord Terminators for one flank? Slow on one, fast on the other... might be fast enough overall? I feel DS with them is too risky, at least against competent opponents.

I haven't tried that yet but I've thought about it. The way things have worked out so far, one person almost always has one objective that is only very tenuously under their control. Blightlords seem like they would be great at stealing that away.

Yeah, but even if said objective is not screened at all, you DS them there and then you are stuck with your 27% 9" charge. If you don't make it, you need to wait to the next turn to control it, and thus wait two turns to score it.

Hhmm... I am going to check out the leaked battleplans to figure out how far you need to go on which missions.

Yeah, but even if said objective is not screened at all, you DS them there and then you are stuck with your 27% 9" charge. If you don't make it, you need to wait to the next turn to control it, and thus wait two turns to score it.

Hhmm... I am going to check out the leaked battleplans to figure out how far you need to go on which missions.

So why I'm not prepared to say "no" to this tactic is because I think they have the ability to "push". Thanks to War of the Spider, their firepower is pretty good, and if you equip 1 with the flail, they become a real problem if they ever do get to melee. So however you bring them on (deepstrike, reserve etc), if you can start them close enough, the opponent is going to HAVE to deal with them at some point. While each turn they get a little closer. You would need to use them on the right (lightly defended) objective, but I can see them being a legitimate distraction carnifex. You basically just have to target an objective that you and your opponent both know they're going to claim if they make it to CC, and meanwhile potentially soft enough that they could clear it with shooting and simply deny the opponent the points.

So let's see... 40mm objective markers, and you measure to the nearest point of the marker not the center, gives you 0.8" of leeway, lol.

Distances required to claim objective:
- only noting objectives in neutral zone
- moving the distance also means you have a 5" charge to any enemy unit that holds said objective, move less and the charge gets longer

Retrival: 1" + 17"
Front-Line Warfare: 9"
Four Pillars: 7" + 12"
No Man's Land: 2x 9"
Scorched Earth: 2x 9"
Vital Intelligence: 4x 9"

If the missions from the Grand Tournament 2020 book follow a similar pattern with 9" being the most common distance it looks perfectly fine. Advance first turn and that's it.
Poxwalkers up front and Bellboy behind. With the Poxwalkers you need a 3+ on the advance roll, otherwise you are in trouble, lol (need one more inch because of the 25mm base).

Tycho wrote:

2000pt 9th edition Death Guard:

-Demon Prince w/wings, relic sword, Revolting Resilient, and miasma- 195pts
-Lord of Contagion w/ Plaguereaper, furnace, arch-contaminator, herald of nurgle- 120pts
-10x Poxwalkers- 70pts
-10x Poxwalkers- 70pts
-10x Cultists- 60pts
-Foul Blightspawn- 85pts
-Foul Blightspawn- 85pts
-3x Death Shroud Terminators- 141pts
-3x Death Shroud Terminators- 141pts
-Bloat Drone w/fleshmower- 125pts
-Bloat Drone w/fleshmower- 125pts
3x Blighthaulers- 300pts
-PBC w/ entropy cannons- 160pts
-PBC w/ entropy cannons- 160pts
-PBC w/ entropy cannons- 160pts

9th edition Total=1997pts
8th edition Total=1787pts

Your obsec units are very slow and won't have staying power. Also, this list is really short ranged outside of the Demon engines. The way 9th works, many armies will be able to dance circles around this. You will be second to objectives every time, and you don't have enough offensive punch to reliably push anyone off the table.

I really think this is going to be an edition where Plague Marines in Rhinos shine. I would try to get two MSU squads in to this.Throw a FBS in each as well for extra close-in support and maybe two winged DPs instead of the LoC which is bad in 8th and only looking to be worse in 9th IMO.

I just can’t see the value in PMs any longer. They are utterly blown off the table against almost against any army. Maybe if they had 2 wounds, but they lack speed, offense, and defensive capabilities. I’d much rather have a 125 pt drone with fleshmower on an objective or flying 10” to take one. Everything else seems faster, more killh, and can take much more damage This list honestly hits very hard with all the PBC buffs and it infuriates my opponent trying to get past a 10W, T7, 4++, and 5+++ save. I have won all 5 of my 9th edition games handedly using it.

Sadly, I think across the board with maybe the exception being intercessors all troops are over priced in 9th.

On a side note does anyone know the cost of a Contemptor Dreadnought with dual butcher cannons in 9th?

I understand your sentiments to an extent, but it's worth pointing out that a drone will lose the objective to five guardsmen. The less obsec you have and the less models in your list in general the easier it will be for your opponent to beat you by having more models around the map than it would be for him to try to actually kill you. At that point you are no longer playing to death guard's strengths.

There's rumblings of people trying to throw 50 to 60 assault intercessors up the field. Against an army like that, trying to rely on our fast attack and heavy support choices to hold points does not seem like a winning strategy.

I guess that would depend on how reliable a Fleshmower Drone is at killing Intercessors. At first glance, the profile seems like it’s make to literally mow them down, but a deeper read of a single strat makes it seem a lot more ambiguous: Transhuman Physiology. Before that strat the drones would be wounding on 2s rerolling ones, after they are hitting on 4s rerolling 1s. We don’t have enough offensive buffs to make a single drone able to sweep even 5 intercessors off of an objective reliability, unless someone else has done this math already and I’m wrong.

Checking the math:
3+6+1 attacks
hit 5
wound 2.5 + 0.2083 = 2.7083
failed saves = 1.805

So even with a daemon prince nearby or putrefying blades you can expect roughly two dead intercessors.
While you could starting stacking buffs on the one drone, using them in pairs is probably the way to go.

 Jidmah wrote:
Checking the math:
3+6+1 attacks
hit 5
wound 2.5 + 0.2083 = 2.7083
failed saves = 1.805

So even with a daemon prince nearby or putrefying blades you can expect roughly two dead intercessors.
While you could starting stacking buffs on the one drone, using them in pairs is probably the way to go.

Sorry the fleshmower also gives +2 strength so you are wounding on 2+ and rerolling ones since it is a plague weapon. On average you will do 7.5 wounds to the intercessor squad killing 3-4 each round of combat. They are very good at this. If they get an extra AP (as you can do with strategems and relics nearby you will do 9.4 wounds killing 4-5 models. They are very good for 125pts and your opponent has one turn to deal
With 2-3 of them charging at his lines before they start destroying their lines.

Sorry, but the discussion was about intercessors affected by the Transhuman Physiology stratagem. You never wound them better than 4+.

I guess if we are throwing a 2CP strategem on them sure. An expensive cost for them.

broxus wrote:
I guess if we are throwing a 2CP strategem on them sure. An expensive cost for them.

This is not up for discussion, you simply completely missed the point.

I was running DG paired with 1ksons or chaos knights at the end of 8th. I'm looking foward to going back to mono.

I was having some luck with trip myphitic's. What do you guys think of running 6 or even nurgle forbid, 9 in a list?

Running mass t7 and t8 models with DR is surely viable, it’s a type of skew list that will really give the average player some trouble because so many type of weapons are just ineffective against them. In higher level play, good lists are able to down a knight or two in a single turn, meaning mass t7 might just be rolled. I think point for point MBHs are very efficient choices in terms of durability, less so in terms of offensive output. Give them a try! I only haven’t done so because I own just three of the puppies!

i never see the point of MBH beside the cost...yoou have defilers PBC and FBD lot more powerful, ironclot furnace DP and you can try, is a list that might crush lot of opponent but of course might fall short against some specific list geared against massed veichles, anyway is more easy talk then really deal with 9 T7+ DR and 4++ inv veichles...lot of lists just cant. Now you can start score points turn1 and then take control of mid field, dislodge you from there isn't easy, perhaps i would play a less extreme list, using 2 or 3 squads of plague in rhino, This is what i tried

AS lists have been slightly nerfed. Not to mention in competitive play the person running DG (and they are in a VERY good spot to maybe see top tables at LVO) are not going to be so dumb as to allow an alpha strike army to pick apart their DG.

It's really hard to gauge the meta. All the people that have access to the rules early and points costs (barring leaks on the internet) are playtesters for GW and unless they start live streaming LVO style lists and not just lists to entertain, it's going to be a few months until the more competitive players who have to wait until next week to start using everything available in 9th, are able to try to make broken lists.

The problem with running tons of non-obsec t7 or t8 models is that a unit of gaunts can steal an objective away from a single vehicle without so much as firing at said vehicle. Plague marines are going to be extremely valuable this edition I think. I need to experiment with large blobs and blobs 10 or under.

PM's might only have one wound each but with T5 and a 5+++ they are still more durable than most obsec units, even intercessor squads. 2 wounds isn't hard to knock out on a model with no inv whatsoever, let alone lacking FNP and T4. THP costs CP and that marine player may want to use it on something else.

PMs in rhinos supported by daemon engines using the 4+ invul strat... that seems like it would just be a pain to handle. Worth a try!

 Brymm wrote:
PMs in rhinos supported by daemon engines using the 4+ invul strat... that seems like it would just be a pain to handle. Worth a try!

Played “scorched earth’ mission against blood angels tonight using my new 9th Daemon engine list I posted earlier. I let him have first turn and then on my turn uncoiled up both flanks, like a snake killing It’s prey. I held the center with my LoC and 3x PBCs, sent my fleshmowers and DP up one side, and my poxwalkers and blighthaulers up the other side. Foul blightspawns supported both flanks. I then dropped in my 2x units of Deathshroud terminators behind his lines to create multiple dilemmas for him. My lessons learned are as follows:

-3x Deathshroud killed everything they touched and cleared rear objectives and his characters for me before being focused down (solid choice)
-3x PBC create lots of problems against opponents. Their mortars are great for clearing units holding objectives and since PA their entropy cannons hit like a truck!! Plague weapons and <3 damage is huge
-My fleshmower are great at soaking up fire and if they get into combat will kill any character easy. (solid 125pt unit)
-the new relic sword absolutely murders stuff. Every 6 to hit basically becomes 3 hits.
-the new SM relive veterans are insanely good for blood angels to outflank in the assault phase. 3 of them had 16x, STR 5, +1 to wound, -4 AP, 2 damage attacks for only 105pts. They can kill almost anything.

Overall, I had basically cleared the table of the red corpse god worshipers by turn 4.

 Brymm wrote:
PMs in rhinos supported by daemon engines using the 4+ invul strat... that seems like it would just be a pain to handle. Worth a try!

I'm still wondering about how many PM to bring. Some playtesters swore by unit sizes of 10, but I've run into the issue of plasma cannons having a field day blowing up plague marine unit of 6+ models because the get the full number of shots against them, as do all other d3 blast weapons.

Following on from my relic question the other day, i think i have to accept it's gonna be a straight choice between the Ironclot Furnace and the Daemon's Toll.

Thing is, thinking about significant units in my army that would benefit from the 5++ it's only really plague marines, rhinos and a helbrute and my rhinos and plague marines are going to probably be splitting off towards objectives early on.

i know I'm probably gonna have a daemon engine core of at least a couple of PBCs and MBHs so I know I'll get use out of a 4++ on engines so I'm leaning towards Ironclot furnace.

If i was being greedy and taking a third relic it'll cost me 2CP. But for 2CP, if i really want to protect things like a rhino/helbrute I'm probably better off giving them disgustingly resilient aren't i? Then I don't have to worry about auras or taking a bellboy.

But does anyone actually have the maths for which is more effective a 5++ or a 5+++ in certain situations? Or at the very least a rough estimate. I'm not even sure how to go about it!

It normally takes 9 SM lascannon shots to kill a rhino. If your rhino has a 5++ it will take 11 lascannon shots to destroy it. If you have DR it takes 13 lascannon a to kill your rhino. If you take both the invul save and DR it takes 16 lascannon shots to destroy your rhino. Meaning if you have both it is about a 50% additional heath pool for those rhinos. If you have to choose between DR and an invul always go for the DR. It works against all damage not just the high AP stuff

Firstly thank you that's exactly what I wanted to know. Secondly wow, even without the buffs it never feels like it takes as many shots as that, maybe I'm just unlucky...
That's made me tempted to put DR on a rhino and even give it a havoc launcher and combi melta or something lol.