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I want to ask some questions about the Elite choices that IG armies have. The first is which of them (Kasrkin, Stormtroopers, Ogryns, and Ratlings) would be the most useful in a starting army. Second, which ones are any use at all. And third, what exactly is the difference between the Kasrkin and Stormtroopers? Are they the same, a little different, or vastly different?

- Kasrkin is the Cadian name for their Storm Troopers, in-game they are the same thing.

- In a starting army, it's not really a good idea to take any of them tbh. Since your starter army will necessarily be small, your points are better spent on either Troop choices, because they can capture objectives, or Fast Attack / Heavy Support for more firepower.

- Storm Troopers are too expensive and pack too little punch to use as a suicide unit, and in all other capacities Veterans are better (cheaper, more ablative wounds, more special weapons, and can capture objectives).

- Ratlings are cheap, but on the other hand, cannot capture objectives and can only take Sniper Rifles. I haven't used them myself, but the overwhelming consensus I've heard is that Sniper Rifles are not worth taking even at their low price.

- Ogryns can be devastating if you use them right, but are very, very, very expensive - 40 points per model. And you'll need to bring a Lord Commissar to prevent them from running away, driving the price even higher.

- Psyker Battle Squads are good units, but keep in mind that with the recent release of Grey Knights, more people are going to be bringing along psychic defense. And as always, they cannot capture objectives, so it may be difficult to find room for them in a small list.

The elites choices that will be most useful to you are entirely determined by your list and local meta. Without this knowledge, we can't be all that helpful, only vague.

And, as the above post already demonstrates, not entirely accurate...

Ailaros wrote:The elites choices that will be most useful to you are entirely determined by your list and local meta. Without this knowledge, we can't be all that helpful, only vague.

Do people just not read the "40K Tactics Posting guidelines - READ THIS FIRST" sticky before posting?

Ailaros wrote:And, as the above post already demonstrates, not entirely accurate...

So youre talking about elites without mentioning Marbo?! Haha he is actually pretty awesome. He drops in and throws a S8 AP2 Large blast. Eats oblites and broadsides, hurts long fangs and devastators. Plus he has stealth and two wounds so drop him into cover and assault the next turn with 5 poison attacks at WS 5 and I 5. Plus his AP 2 pistol is nice

IG elites are definitly a matter of taste and local flavor. Nothing is a must have by any means.

My codex review is now nearly two years old, and should get an update at some point, but it does a decent job explaining the values of each choice:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/5th_Edition_Imperial_Guard_Codex_Elites_Review_%28Polonius%29

Athaleon wrote:- Kasrkin is the Cadian name for their Storm Troopers, in-game they are the same thing.

- In a starting army, it's not really a good idea to take any of them tbh. Since your starter army will necessarily be small, your points are better spent on either Troop choices, because they can capture objectives, or Fast Attack / Heavy Support for more firepower.

- Storm Troopers are too expensive and pack too little punch to use as a suicide unit, and in all other capacities Veterans are better (cheaper, more ablative wounds, more special weapons, and can capture objectives).

- Ratlings are cheap, but on the other hand, cannot capture objectives and can only take Sniper Rifles. I haven't used them myself, but the overwhelming consensus I've heard is that Sniper Rifles are not worth taking even at their low price.

- Ogryns can be devastating if you use them right, but are very, very, very expensive - 40 points per model. And you'll need to bring a Lord Commissar to prevent them from running away, driving the price even higher.

- Psyker Battle Squads are good units, but keep in mind that with the recent release of Grey Knights, more people are going to be bringing along psychic defense. And as always, they cannot capture objectives, so it may be difficult to find room for them in a small list.

Storm troopers: i agree, i either run them as a five man squad with two meltas and deep strike. or, maybe on large point games, a ten man with two flamers to help rid those pesky scoring units of the opponents.

Ratlings: they are a great way to fill out those remaing 30 to 60 points you might have left over but nothing to put in them. they are cheaper and better than SM scout snipers.

Ogryns: I love them. they are great, but, have to run with either a lord commissar, or my favorite, Commissar Yarrick in a chimera (with dozer blade). get them into the fight quick, let them assault some unit.

IMO: Ratlings are wonderful, especially if you have a Psyker battle squad. With them you can reduce the LD of an enemy unit all the way down to 2. The ratlings sniper fire causes a pinning test which the unit will almost definitely fail.

Stormtroopers, are great if you can spare the points. For me they are a saving grace in game where i do piss poor. I normally take a 5 man squad with 2 plasma guns or 2 melta guns. If you give them the airborne mission thingy, you can reroll the scatter dice too.

forruner_mercy wrote:I want to ask some questions about the Elite choices that IG armies have. The first is which of them (Kasrkin, Stormtroopers, Ogryns, and Ratlings) would be the most useful in a starting army. Second, which ones are any use at all. And third, what exactly is the difference between the Kasrkin and Stormtroopers? Are they the same, a little different, or vastly different?

In a starting army? None of them.

If you must have at least one, then I would go with Ratlings, and although they do have leadership problems they are excellent snipers for their points cost.

Kasrkins are the elite soldiers, the grenadiers, of Cadia- they have absolutely nothing to do with storm troopers. Storm troopers are trained throughout the Imperium by the Scholas Progenium, and have no connections to the Imperial Guard. They are still a part of the Munitorum however, and fight alongside the Guard when called upon.

Redscare wrote:Kasrkins are the elite soldiers, the grenadiers, of Cadia- they have absolutely nothing to do with storm troopers. Storm troopers are trained throughout the Imperium by the Scholas Progenium, and have no connections to the Imperial Guard. They are still a part of the Munitorum however, and fight alongside the Guard when called upon.

Ahem. For the purpose of the Table Top Kasrkin (models) use the Storm Trooper profile. The fluff is irrelevant.

RubberJonny wrote:

Redscare wrote:Kasrkins are the elite soldiers, the grenadiers, of Cadia- they have absolutely nothing to do with storm troopers. Storm troopers are trained throughout the Imperium by the Scholas Progenium, and have no connections to the Imperial Guard. They are still a part of the Munitorum however, and fight alongside the Guard when called upon.

Ahem. For the purpose of the Table Top Kasrkin (models) use the Storm Trooper profile. The fluff is irrelevant.

Indeed, I forgot to mention that for gaming purposes, the Kasrkin models are generally used as storm troopers, alongside the old storm trooper models.

However, it is hardly up to you to decide for the OP what his intent was when he asked what is the difference between Kasrkins and Storm Troopers. It may well have been a fluff question, and not a gaming one.

Redscare wrote:However, it is hardly up to you to decide for the OP what his intent was when he asked what is the difference between Kasrkins and Storm Troopers. It may well have been a fluff question, and not a gaming one.

Fair play. At least now both questions have been asnwered.

Peace!

None of the elite choices are useful in a starting army. In a Starting army depending on if your going mechanized or foot you either want to get your company command squad either with meltas in a chimera for mech or on foot with cammo cloaks meltas bodyguards medic, regimental standard and straken for foot. and then 4+ troop choices from melta/plasma veterans in chimeras or large combined troop platoons with power weapons on sarges, a commissar each and possibley heavy weapons and meltas before you even think of elites. For mechanized lists you want to go with vendettas for ranged anti tank and then your choice of heavy support. I recommend hydras and manticores but Russ variants have merit. With a foot list you might want to splice in Russes to fire from the back field surrounded by your infantry.

Karsrkins are Cadian Storm Troopers as already stated.

There really only 2 elite choices worth taking.

The Psyker battle squad can be quite useful for weaken resolve against nonfearless deathstars without psyker protection like nobs, dark eldar beasts. This depends on your meta game as they lose effectiveness against psyker defenses being only leadership 9 but have a 36 range so can get off a power or two before they get within the 24 inch hood/runic weapon range.

Marbo is pretty useful to deliver a demolition charge anywhere you want in certain match ups he can quickly pay for himself or just blow himself up and give away a kill point. He is pretty fun.

The bad
Ogryn are really over costed and are not as good as an assault terminator. They are difficult to use as assault units as they have bad leadership you can add a commissar to help with this but this just makes them cost even more. Also Chimeras have one access point in the rear which makes it difficult to assault with Ogryns.

Rattlings don't really do much, they provide cheap pinning to maybe use with the psyker battle squad but otherwise your points are better spent elsewhere.

Thank you all! Your help was invaluable.

Avariel wrote:Ogryn are really over costed and are not as good as an assault terminator.

Well, not as good against some things. Assault Terminators have their own set of competencies that don't really overlap with those of Ogryns. For example, Assault Terminators are amazing against monstrous creatures and other units that hit really hard by virtue of a small number of high quality attacks. They are also not so good against masses of attacks (cc or ranged) that just force a ton of saves or against things with a bunch of wounds. Basically anything that gets around their great defense and offense by shear numbers. Ogryns, on the other hand, are good against masses such as these where their ripper guns can cull the herd before they charge in, and T5 limits the power coming back at them.

Consider, even, 5 TH/SS termies vs. 5 Charging Ogryns:
Ripper Guns: 15 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/6 = 0.83 likely terminator kills
Ogryns: 21 * 1/2 * 5/6 * 1/6 = 1.46 likely terminator kills
So lets say 2 Termies are down before they get to swing
6 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 2.5 likely Ogryn wounds, if it's 2, no Ogryns die, if it's 3, you put one on the Bone-'ead and everybody is around next turn. The Ogryn lose, but are stubborn so a nearby commissar or standard should keep them around.

Round 2:
Ogryns: 16 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/6 = 0.89 likely terminator kills (we'll call it 1)
Terminators: 4 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 1.67 likely Ogryn Wounds (we'll call it 2, 1 Ogryn finished off, 1 floating)

Anyway, you see where this is going: The Assault Terminators keep winning combat, and the Ogryn keep killing Terminators. 15 wounds is just too much for assault terminators to pound through when they're taking casualties themselves.

Caveats: It should be obvious that this scenario gives some advantages to the Ogyrns in several ways: First it gives them HQ based leadership buffs to reduce their breaking chances. These units are likely going to be nearby, or thanks to a chimera, will move in to support the combat. They are not present in sole support of the Ogryn. Second, the Ogryn have been given the charge. I did this because Assault Terminators must close with a Guard Army in order to avoid Horrible Death. They have no ranged options, and even a base platoon will start inflicting serious casualties with lasguns (about half a wound per squad from lasguns at double tap range, any casualties are serious casualties for terminators). So these are advantageous conditions for the Ogryns, but they are also likely conditions.

The bottom line? Ogryns are overcosted and not as good as assault terminators except against, at least, Assault Terminators. (Although if you run the math, they're pretty great against a lot of things, you just have to pick their targets, like any assault unit).

The more I think about it, the more I feel like Ogyrns are the best kept secret of IG.

There is much talk of their suckishness, yet whenever I see someone use them they perform well. Conspiracy? lol.

If they wheren't so damn expensive, I would probably pick some up.

EDIT: Yes, they are bad compared to Assault Terminators. Duh? When used against soft targets, they seem like the equivalent of Fiends for the Guard; multi-wound, not easy to kill, and relatively effective in CC.

Of course, I could be totally off base here, but that's just my opinion.