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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 17:55:46
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Legendary Dogfighter
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...
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All right, we have all wondered what the real strength of a SM chapter was, if we count the vehicle crew, the fleet, the armory, etc. For the past few days, I have been working on assessing the real strength of a space marine chapter. I took the example of a random codex chapter at its full strength ( so please ignore space wolves, black templars, etc). This list doesn't consider any potential battle casualty. To create this list, I've cross-referenced many different sources, including all of the IA books, the SM codex, white dwarf articles, BL novels the BFG rulebook, etc. So it is not a random guess, I've really worked on this list. This list is not perfect however, and I would like to hear your comments/advices. Here we go: H&Q: Chapter master Honour Guard (including chapter standard bearer): 20 veterans (?) Reclusiam: master of the reclusiam+unknown number of chaplains (2-3?) High ranking officers attached to the HQ? Special advisors to the Chapter Master? Transport and command vehicles: 2-3 land raiders (personnal vehicle of the chapter master, prometheus command vehicle) + 5 damocles rhinos. In all, 8-9 crew. Total: 35 SM (rough estimation) Librarius: Chief librarian 3 epistolaries 6 codiciers 10 lexicaniums Total: 20 SM (estimation) Apothecarion: 10 apothecaries 5 pilots for the specially modified medical rhinos total: 15 SM Armory: 10 LR of various types: 30 crew 20 predators of various types: 40 crew 7 razorbacks of various types: 7 pilots 5 vindicators: 10 crew 20 whirlwinds of various types: 40 crew additionnal techmarines acting as reserve crews, maintenance and battle engineers, etc: 30 100 TDA suits (rough estimation) total: 157 SM Fleet: 2-3 battle barges 6 strike cruisers 5-6 escort squadrons = roughly 20 escort vessels of various types. 30-35 thunderhawk gunship: 120-140 crew 35 thunderhawk transporters: 105 crew total: 245 SM 1st Company: Captain Chaplain Apothecary Standard Bearer 100 veterans 30 crew for 10 LR of various types 10 pilots for 10 rhinos 3 dreads total: 147 SM 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th company: Captain Chaplain Apothecary Standard Bearer 100 marines 10 pilots for the transport vehicles (rhinos and razorbacks) 20 crew for 10 land speeders of various types 3 dreads total: 138 SM for each company 10th company: Captain Chaplain Apothecary 100 scouts total: 103 marines Estimated total strength of a SM codex chapter: roughly 1800 SM (1826 marines in my list) So what do you dakkanauts think about it  ? Interesting? Bulls  ? Doesn't make sense? I would especially like to hear your view on the HQ and the librarius, I had a hard time making a list for these two, and they are still a very rough estimation.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/05/03 17:58:52
"How many more worlds do we sacrifice? How many more millions or billions do we betray before we turn and fight?" - attributed to Captain Leoten Semper of Battlefleet Gothic - Gothic War, the evacuation of Belatis.
If commanding a Titan is a measure of true power, then commanding a warship is like having one foot on the Golden Throne - Navy saying. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 18:09:27
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
Perth/Glasgow
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Ultra marines the most codexy of codex chaoters have:
Calger
27 Honour Guard
Total 28
Chief Librarium Tigirus
5 epistolaries
9 Codiciers
10 Lexicanums
3 Acolytum
Total 28
Chief Apothercary Helix
12 Apothecaries
Total 13
1st Compnay 97 Marines 3 Dreadnoughts
2nd Company 10 Squads 2 Dreadnoughts
3rd Company 10 Squads 2 Dreadnoughts
4th Company 10 Squads 4 Dreadnoughts
5th Compnay 10 Squads 1 Dreadnought
6th Company 10 Squads 4 Dreadnoughts
7th Company 10 Squads 3 Dreadnoughts
8th Company 10 Squads
9th Company 10 Squads 7 Dreadnoughts
10th Company Unknown
In addition to
27 Tech Marines
95 Tech Servitors
1700 Equerries and servitors
25 Predators
8 Vindicators
9 Whirlwinds
13 Land Raider
8 Strike Cruisers
3 Battle Varges
12 Rapid Strike Vehicles (Stromraven??)
31 Thunderhawk Gunships
0 Thunderhawk transporters
Circa 999.M41
No mention of chaplains but I assume that there is one for each company
It also mentions that equipment such as Landspeeders and Bikes are used by the troops in that company are used when needed. This laso includes the transports......
Assuming each company is at full strength including scouts it comes to :
1147 Marines 1795 Servitors/serfs and 55 vehicles
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/05/03 18:14:17
Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 18:18:00
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Chaplains are part of the Reclusiam.
there is the Master of Sanctity, 2-3 reclusiarchs, and around 10 low ranked chaplians.
according to your list of the Smurfs that comes to around 1425 marines without counting Dreadnoughts(using Laodamia's numbers for the Fleet)
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 18:22:33
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
Perth/Glasgow
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Even with me re-calculating there is only 1156 Marines assuming all companies are at full strength
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Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 18:26:06
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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did you count pilots and the Chapter Fleet?
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 18:26:43
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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deleted by Frazzled as being blindingly off from the topic. helps if I read the OP properly...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/03 18:27:52
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 18:29:17
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
Perth/Glasgow
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Grey Templar wrote:did you count pilots and the Chapter Fleet?
No but from the way the codex makes it sound that all strike vessels are piloted by members of the company who have requisitioned it.
But no i haven't included the Battle Barge and Strike Cruiser crews as I don't know roughly how many they hold
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Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 18:31:45
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Legendary Dogfighter
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...
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Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: It also mentions that equipment such as Landspeeders and Bikes are used by the troops in that company are used when needed. This laso includes the transports...... I fully agree with the bikes, they seemed to be manned by SM from other squads but this is definitely wrong for rhinos, land speeders and razorbacks. Rhinos and razorbacks only require 1 SM to function properly: a driver. Any potential weapon is automated, or, in the case of a pintle-mounted weapon, manned by the leader of the squad using this vehicle as a transport. The same situation seems to apply for land speeders. In the charts describing the deployment of a SM strike force, land speeders are always described as being completely independent units from SM squads. It means that, in action, each land speeder will be manned by its own pilot and gunner, and not by two members of another infantry squad (which would not be a viable tactical option anyway). Another option could be that these land speeders are crewed by members of another company (like the reserve companies). But this situation would not be viable either in the case of a full deployment of the chapter, where some squads would be left dangerously understrength because some of their members have to crew the vehicles. No, land speeders and transport vehicles definitely have their own independent crews.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/03 18:34:44
"How many more worlds do we sacrifice? How many more millions or billions do we betray before we turn and fight?" - attributed to Captain Leoten Semper of Battlefleet Gothic - Gothic War, the evacuation of Belatis.
If commanding a Titan is a measure of true power, then commanding a warship is like having one foot on the Golden Throne - Navy saying. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 18:34:25
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
Perth/Glasgow
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Space Marine Codex wrote:
Transport vehicles and special equipment (such as bikes, Land Speeders and so on) are not listed, as each company will draw such equipment contingent to mission parameters)
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Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 18:42:59
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Legendary Dogfighter
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...
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Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Space Marine Codex wrote: Transport vehicles and special equipment (such as bikes, Land Speeders and so on) are not listed, as each company will draw such equipment contingent to mission parameters)
I have read that. But this doesn't make sense and is in complete contradiction with the IA books and the BL publications, which is why I chose to dismiss this option in the making of my list. Each company owns a pool of transport vehicles for its own use. These transport vehicles are rhinos, razorbacks and (in the case of the first company) LR. Any other vehicle is drawn from the armory on a mission to mission basis. In each deployment, these vehicles are listed as independent units. They are not part of a tactical or assault squad, which would indicate that they have their own crews. In addition, in the description of the operation, each squad is always described as being at full strength, which means that no marine was left behind as a driver. Actually, if all SM vehicles were to be crewed by members of the infantry squads, it would leave the squads of any strike force at 50% of their original strength, the rest acting as crews for the vehicles, which doesn't make sense whatsoever.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/03 18:44:39
"How many more worlds do we sacrifice? How many more millions or billions do we betray before we turn and fight?" - attributed to Captain Leoten Semper of Battlefleet Gothic - Gothic War, the evacuation of Belatis.
If commanding a Titan is a measure of true power, then commanding a warship is like having one foot on the Golden Throne - Navy saying. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 18:44:55
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
Perth/Glasgow
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The land Raiders Predators etc are crewed by dedicated crew just Rhinos and Razorbacks and LS are crewed by squads of the strike force
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Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 18:47:46
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Renegade Inquisitor de Marche
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Land Speeders are crewed by reserve company members aren't they?
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Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
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"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 18:49:29
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Legendary Dogfighter
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...
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Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:The land Raiders Predators etc are crewed by dedicated crew just Rhinos and Razorbacks and LS are crewed by squads of the strike force
The IA book n°5 (siege of Vraks part 1) lists a dark angels strike force.
In this chart, vehicles are described as independant units ( even the rhinos transporting the infantry squads), just as the land speeders deployed with this strike force. In addition, the crews of the land speeders themselves are described as independent units. I don't know how much more proof you need.
In addition, the IA book n°2 describes the functioning of a rhino with detailed articles and graphs. In these graphs, we see the place occupied by each member of the infantry squads. During transport, the squad leader takes place in the rhino's cupola, and mans the pintle-mounted weapon (if present), while his 9 squadmates take place in the troop compartment. The driver is described as being completely independent from the squad.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/05/03 18:56:27
"How many more worlds do we sacrifice? How many more millions or billions do we betray before we turn and fight?" - attributed to Captain Leoten Semper of Battlefleet Gothic - Gothic War, the evacuation of Belatis.
If commanding a Titan is a measure of true power, then commanding a warship is like having one foot on the Golden Throne - Navy saying. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 18:57:18
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
Perth/Glasgow
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purplefood wrote:Land Speeders are crewed by reserve company members aren't they?
I though they were crewed by Assulat marines either form the 7th or the original comany
Laodamia wrote:Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:The land Raiders Predators etc are crewed by dedicated crew just Rhinos and Razorbacks and LS are crewed by squads of the strike force
The IA book n°5 (siege of Vraks part 1) lists a dark angels strike force.
In this chart, vehicles are described as independant units ( even the rhinos transporting the infantry squads), just as the land speeders deployed with this strike force. In addition, the crews of the land speeders themselves are described as independent units. I don't know how much more proof you need.
Dark angels don't adhere as stricly to the Codex Astartes as the ultrasmurfs do and it is my belief that the codex is the first source of canon you should use as BL and FW have contradicted fluff before
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/03 18:58:07
Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 19:01:12
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Legendary Dogfighter
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...
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Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: Dark angels don't adhere as stricly to the Codex Astartes as the ultrasmurfs do and it is my belief that the codex is the first source of canon you should use as BL and FW have contradicted fluff before One one side, you have one passage from the codex (which is still a viable source, I agree with you). On the other side you have IA books 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10. I'll dismiss the BL novels, their fluff is sometimes sketchy. All of the IA books say the same thing: vehicles have their own crew. Which is why I chose to follow their point of view. Think about it. If, as you say, rhino drivers are members of infantry squads, it would mean that this marine drives the rhino to the heat of the fighting, and then abandons his vehicle to join his squad? That doesn't make any sense! Or, he continues to drive the rhino, to provide his squad with some fire support and a way out, and thus diminishes the strength of his squad? It doesn't make sense either. In any piece of fluff I've read, infantry squads were always 10 men strong, the driver was not part of the squad.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/05/03 19:05:55
"How many more worlds do we sacrifice? How many more millions or billions do we betray before we turn and fight?" - attributed to Captain Leoten Semper of Battlefleet Gothic - Gothic War, the evacuation of Belatis.
If commanding a Titan is a measure of true power, then commanding a warship is like having one foot on the Golden Throne - Navy saying. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 19:07:51
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
Perth/Glasgow
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Good old GW putting out contradicting fluff
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Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 19:18:52
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Personally, I like the thought that has bee floated around before that the 1000 marine limit only refers to full astartes infantry; vehicle drivers are ot counted, nor are scouts (and indeed, i can see the ultras, what with their little empire as having entire chapters worth of scouts many times over... but that's a personal opinion)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 19:19:24
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Legendary Dogfighter
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...
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Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Good old GW putting out contradicting fluff
I know, it makes me want to take a bolter, go to GW's office and ask these guys to actually read what their buddies are writing and publishing, because each member of GW's writing staff seems to come up with a different version of the W40K universe...
purplefood wrote:Land Speeders are crewed by reserve company members aren't they?
Maybe. I could be wrong actually.
IA books, in their strike force charts, list land speeders as being independent units, unlike bikes, which is why I think land speeders have their own crews. But I do recall reading in the codex, and in other pieces of fluff, that land speeders were crewed by members of the reserve companies.
But then, what if the chapter deploys its full strength? Does it mean that they can't deploy any land speeder? Or that their reserve companies are understrength?
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"How many more worlds do we sacrifice? How many more millions or billions do we betray before we turn and fight?" - attributed to Captain Leoten Semper of Battlefleet Gothic - Gothic War, the evacuation of Belatis.
If commanding a Titan is a measure of true power, then commanding a warship is like having one foot on the Golden Throne - Navy saying. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 19:29:36
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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The OP left the techmarines Out?
Once GW provided a pic of a whole chapter, the Ultramarines, in codex space marine 3rd ed. Were obviously more than 1k on that pic
Let me try to show you without photographing the dex:
- 10 Land Raider
- 3 predator, 3 whirlwind
- 3 razorback, 83 rhinos
- gun platforms, a bit to small to identify but 10 of them. 5 techmarines.
- 3 thunderhawks
- a lonely landspeeder
- 7 dreads
- 4 battle companies a 100 marines each plus captain, chaplain, apothecary, command squad => 105
- 4 reserve companies a 100 marines each, plus captain, chaplain, apothecary, command squad => 105
- veteran compagny, providing both, a 100 in TDA and a 100 in PA. Plus a command squad of 5. => assuming it is to show both options.
- scouts lurking in the back. 8 squads of 5 plus command. ~ 45
- officers stnding there and doing what they do best-nothing. 2 x5 if I didn't miss something.
= 9 x 105 + 45 + 10 + 5 > 1005, without vehicle crews or dreads.
The codex astartes list cannot be exactly 1k, as codex structure would demand 10 squads of 10 marines without officers/specialists per
company. Whilst transports are debated if crew is from the company or from armory, Predator, vindicator, whirlwind and Land Raider crews
are surely additional to the 100 marines per company structure.
HQ:
Headquarter, Librarium, Reclusiam, Apothecarion, Arsenal.
Chapter master, honor guards, Librarians, chaplains, apothecaries, techmarines.
At least 10-30 marines per group, so easily up to company size.
Troops:
Battlecompanies, reserve companies, scout company.
ideally 10 x 100 marines. Without counting dreads.
The captain is additional to this, as are dreads.
Support:
Tank crews, ship crews, artillery crews.
some of these may be servitors, some chapter serfs. Still a lot of additional marines there, who are not part of a company.
Most tanks need a crew 2-3, even if some dutys won't have to have a marine doing it surely another half to full company of marines.
Naval assets:
Seem to have a ton of serfs and servitors plus the actually transported company/squad of marines.
Specializing in naval warfare isn't unheard of, so maybe a few valuable ships have a dedicated captain?
Sums up to:
1000 marines organized in companies,
~ 100 officers and specialists,
~ 50 marines as vehicle crew,
= 1150 as minimum.
Most likely marines are used where possible and thus:
- more crew is neccessay,
- codex describes the company structure,
- 1k is a goal to achieve in battle ready marines.
- Dreads could be part of this 1k. Could.
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Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 19:47:49
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Legendary Dogfighter
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...
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1hadhq wrote:The OP left the techmarines Out?
I didn't leave the techmarines out. Check the list carefully, they're mentionned in the armory section.
Anyway, I guess most of the techmarines would actually serve as crews for the vehicles. So I did take the techmarines into account when I made my list.
Naval assets:
Seem to have a ton of serfs and servitors plus the actually transported company/squad of marines.
Specializing in naval warfare isn't unheard of, so maybe a few valuable ships have a dedicated captain?
Good point. I am not sure myself. It is said that the title of master of the fleet is given to a company captain, and that members of his company usually make up for most of the fleet's command structure. But I am not sure how many SM officers the chapter's fleet would need to function properly.
I guess that the fleet can function without their SM masters. Most of the functions of SM ships are controlled by AIs (like most of the armament, life-support systems, etc), so I guess a small cadre of normal humans could control the fleet if need be. This is why I didn't include any SM crews for the fleet (except for the thunderhawks, which do require a SM crew to function).
However, I guess that to be at optimum fighting capability, the fleet would require SM officers and their superior tactical experience, along with small squads of battle-brothers to lead the defense of the ships against any boarding action.
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"How many more worlds do we sacrifice? How many more millions or billions do we betray before we turn and fight?" - attributed to Captain Leoten Semper of Battlefleet Gothic - Gothic War, the evacuation of Belatis.
If commanding a Titan is a measure of true power, then commanding a warship is like having one foot on the Golden Throne - Navy saying. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 20:08:55
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
Perth/Glasgow
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Laodamia wrote:Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Good old GW putting out contradicting fluff
I know, it makes me want to take a bolter, go to GW's office and ask these guys to actually read what their buddies are writing and publishing, because each member of GW's writing staff seems to come up with a different version of the W40K universe...
I just want to handcuff them and slamm their faces off a pavement/wall. Pointing something at them doesn't have the same satisfaction.....
Laodamia wrote:
purplefood wrote:Land Speeders are crewed by reserve company members aren't they?
Maybe. I could be wrong actually.
IA books, in their strike force charts, list land speeders as being independent units, unlike bikes, which is why I think land speeders have their own crews. But I do recall reading in the codex, and in other pieces of fluff, that land speeders were crewed by members of the reserve companies.
But then, what if the chapter deploys its full strength? Does it mean that they can't deploy any land speeder? Or that their reserve companies are understrength?
I was sure that the company captain told some of his assualt marines to get rid of those jump packs and get their asses in those land speeders or they had 7th company marines assigned to cover....
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Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 21:23:15
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Legendary Dogfighter
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...
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Fair enough, so the land speeders are could be manned by members of the infantry squads then. Maybe its a mixture of both? With some land speeders having dedicated specialist crews, while the rest are simply manned by infantry dudes. After all, I SM have at least a basic training in most of the vehicles their chapter uses right?
1hadhq wrote:
Support:
Tank crews, ship crews, artillery crews.
some of these may be servitors, some chapter serfs. Still a lot of additional marines there, who are not part of a company.
Most tanks need a crew 2-3, even if some dutys won't have to have a marine doing it surely another half to full company of marines.
Definitely more than only 50 marines. In the fleet itself, just to man the thunderhawks gunships and transporters, you would need at least 200 marines. A thunderhawk gunship requires 4 marines to be fully operational: a pilot, a copilot, a navigator and a gunner (in charge of the external missiles, bombs and the turbolaser, the rest is controlled by machine spirits).
An average chapter will need to keep at least 30 gunships operational at all times (not just for ground transport and support to the chapter's ground forces, but also for the security of the fleet against enemy attack crafts).
That means 120 marines just to man the gunships, and we haven't even taken into account the thunderhawk transporters and the potential officer cadre for the fleet itself.
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"How many more worlds do we sacrifice? How many more millions or billions do we betray before we turn and fight?" - attributed to Captain Leoten Semper of Battlefleet Gothic - Gothic War, the evacuation of Belatis.
If commanding a Titan is a measure of true power, then commanding a warship is like having one foot on the Golden Throne - Navy saying. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 21:26:48
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
Perth/Glasgow
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Jjust a slightly pedantic point but wouldn't the navigator just be a 'normal' one.
and I suppose there would be marines who ahve graduated form the scout company yet are waiting for placement in a company.
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Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 21:28:25
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Renegade Inquisitor de Marche
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Navigators are from outside sources. Navigator houses.
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Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 21:30:42
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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the Navigators would be normal Navigators from the Navigatorius Nobiliate.
although it isn't unheard of for a Librarian to have the navigator gene(3rd eye and all)
if a chapter found a Navigator mutant amoung their recruiting stock they would probablty take the individual. if Female, she would be trained to be a Navigator. if Male he could become a space marine(assuming he passed the tests)
Navigators tend to often have advanced psychic powers.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 21:31:36
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
Perth/Glasgow
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They do (I've played Rogue Trader)
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Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 21:37:32
Subject: The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Legendary Dogfighter
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...
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purplefood wrote:Navigators are from outside sources. Navigator houses. Huh, I think that by "navigator", it was meant like a normal, real-life navigator. You, know, the guy charged with setting up a course for the aircraft, giving overall directions to get somewhere etc. I don't think it was the 40K navigator with the freaky third eye and the psychic skills and all that. I don't see why thunderhawks would need a "psychic-navigator", they are not warp-capable vessels. So a thunderhawk's navigator could be a SM, though it could be a normal human too, when I think about it. I guess it's not that hard to read a map right? But the pilot, the co-pilot and the gunner have to be full astartes though.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/03 21:51:26
"How many more worlds do we sacrifice? How many more millions or billions do we betray before we turn and fight?" - attributed to Captain Leoten Semper of Battlefleet Gothic - Gothic War, the evacuation of Belatis.
If commanding a Titan is a measure of true power, then commanding a warship is like having one foot on the Golden Throne - Navy saying. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/03 21:50:35
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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i think there was a translation issue.
by Navigator, someone probably meant Pilot.
they didn't mean "Navigator"
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/04 14:47:34
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Legendary Dogfighter
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...
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All right, I've done some additional research on the matter of land speeders. So, the codex says land speeders are manned by SM from the reserve companies. This would indicate that land speeders are part of the armory, and do not directly depend on the individual companies.
But IA vol 2 ( SM and Inquisition) tells a completely different story. According to this book, in some brief notes I hadn't noticed before, land speeders are definitely part of the vehicle pool of infantry companies, just like rhinos and razorbacks and thus can't be crewed by members of other companies.
In addition, it seems that even the first company has access to land speeders!?! Indeed, this book mentions a land speeder of the imperial fists first company. I think this is just a small error. I've never heard of any "veteran land speeder" with any codex chapter before... AFAIK, the first company doesn't have access to land speeders.
Anyway, so the IA book clearly states that land speeders can't be manned by members of another company. So, are they crewed by specialist pilots or by members of infantry squads? Well, the same book presents the organisation chart of the Khymara Pursuit Force (executioners chapter), where it is stated that land speeders are effectively crewed by members of the infantry squads, just like the bikes.
So, I think I'm gonna go with this version finally: Land speeders are part of the vehicle pool of each company, so they can't be crewed by members of other companies but are manned by members of their company's infantry squads.
Everyone ok with that? What are your thoughts?
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"How many more worlds do we sacrifice? How many more millions or billions do we betray before we turn and fight?" - attributed to Captain Leoten Semper of Battlefleet Gothic - Gothic War, the evacuation of Belatis.
If commanding a Titan is a measure of true power, then commanding a warship is like having one foot on the Golden Throne - Navy saying. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/04 15:14:21
Subject: Re:The real strength of a Sm chapter
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Dakka Veteran
Eye of Terra.
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There is no 'real' strength for a Marine Chapter and I don't think there has been any fluff to that end, has there?
Every reference I've seen, pictures of models and otherwise, only show a moment in time and not what is expected from the Codex Astartes. Even in the Marine Codex it mentions Chapters that have certain specializations (armored assault etc...) and these aren't seen as divergent in any way.
So, it appears to me that the Codex, contrary to what we might expect, does not have a set finite structure for Marine Chapters. Basic elements yes, but in the overall, no.
Much like a Late Roman legion from our own history and in my view exactly what GW had in mind when they created the notion of the Space Marine Chapters in the first place.
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