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Hi all,
Im looking at taking a vanguard veteran squad for my Ultramarines (using some very cool new parts from the new Grey Knights ) I was initially planning on not taking jump packs and using a drop pod. But looking at it Im wondering if it might be better to take jump packs or maybe a razorback for some extra support? What are the general thoughts on Vanguard squads? Jump packs, drop pods or razorbacks/rhinos?

Thanks,
Brother Boom

Most people, from lots of forums, will tell you to put down the idea and bugger off. Reason being is you're putting points into elite Assault Marines... which aren't very good at being elite in the first place. Believe me, I've tried so hard to make the unit work. There is only a few tricks left to them that work - sadly both can be outdone by another unit.

The first trick is a 5-man squad, with Jump-packs and an assortment of weaponry. you can go for twin LC's, Storm Shields, your call. I'd think Storm Shields at the minimum and a T-hammer or Relic Blade on the sarge, then take MB's. This unit now had a 3+ invun and can take on infantry (to a point) and tanks. However there's Terminators for that - better armour, and given T-Hammer/SS & LC mix they do the job fine, and better for less points.

The other mix I've heard of is 10 in a LR with a character or two. The 10 will have a mix of weapons, but not too many, and a character like Khan or a Chaplain hangs about with them. Zoom it about and pop out for a nasty assault. PRoblem is you've wasted a HS slot for a LR and it's a "too many eggs in one basket" problem. Pop the LR and ther goes your CC unit on foot, ripe for shooting.

Here's the general problem: Vanguard are not cheap for what they do. A base unit is 125pts, add jump-packs and now its 175, and they're only tactic is dropping in for a possible assault. Okay toss MB's in and now the unit's 200pts. Now you got 5 guys with tank-killing capabilities - a suicide unit if you will. And a crap one at that. Because at 200pts you can get Terminators. The unit got done wrong in the dex IMHO. Jump-packs should have been standard at the very minimum, and maybe toss FC in since they're eite Assault Marines. But when you try for options, well, there are CC Terminators that can do the job better in most regard.

You can if you want go nuts. 10 Vanguard, LC/SS on all of them, sarge gets t-hammer. Now add MB's to all. Put Shrike and a Jump Chaplain in the unit. Over 1000pts into what is essentially a Glass Hammer. Infiltrate the unit thanks to Shrike, then rip faces off. Infantry, vehicles, they'll die fast. MC's will be fun and hard to kill but otherwise you'll romp the field. And then die in the open

If you have already maxed out your elite slots, I think they can be taken to add some punch, but it is expensive.

they are not cheap, and since when they drop down they go 2d6 i would avoid the JP route. With BA they are useful with JP, but with normal marines they just can't get the heroic assault rule off enough for it to be worth it.

I would also be very careful to not overload them. it is easy to see them as being a deathstar unit. THEY ARE NOT A DEATHSTAR UNIT. i don't think so at least. You can give them lots of wargear but before you know it they end up being 400+ points and most armies can get a better deathstar unit for much less that will wreck this unit.


what I do (thou i play BA) is to use the weapons as "special" and "heavy" weapons. I tend to give two special weapons per every 5 men in the squad, with maybe some meltabombs or storm shields to help deal with wound allocation. But again assault marines may be better here.. you could just have a small squad in a razorback with one or two LCs so that it isn't too many points and may be somewhat better in an assault than a normal assault squad.

I haven't seen them as helpful in generic space marines lists, the people i know who try them out usually see assault marines as better for the same point value.