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Testing a new CSM list..

Chaos Space Marines - 2,000 points

HQ

Kharn the Betrayer

Elite

Chaos Dreadnought w/ dreadnought close combat weapon, missile launcher & extra armour

Chaos Dreadnought w/ dreadnought close combat weapon, missile launcher & extra armour

Chaos Dreadnought w/ dreadnought close combat weapon, missile launcher & extra armour


Troops

5 x Plague Marines w/ Chaos Rhino - 2 x meltaguns

5 x Plague Marines w/ Chaos Rhino - 2 x meltaguns

5 x Plague Marines w/ Chaos Rhino - 2 x meltaguns

5 x Plague Marines w/ Chaos Rhino - 2 x meltaguns

7 x Khorne Berzerkers w/ Chaos Rhino

7 x Khorne Berzerkers w/ Chaos Rhino


Heavy Support

5 x Havocs - 4 x missile launchers

5 x Havocs - 4 x missile launchers


5 x Havocs - 3 x missile launchers



Tyranids "Hive Fleet Kraken" - 2,000 points


HQ

Hive Tyrant - 2 x twin-linked devourers, old adversary & armoured shell

Tyrant Guard - lash whip

Tervigon - crushing claws, adrenal glands, toxin sacs & catalyst

Elite

2 x Hive Guard

2 x Hive Guard

2 x Hive Guard

Troops

Tervigon - crushing claws, adrenal glands, toxin sacs & catalyst

Tervigon - crushing claws, adrenal glands, toxin sacs & catalyst

10 x Termagants

10 x Termagants

8 x Genestealers

8 x Genestealers

Heavy Support

Carnifex - 2 x twin-linked devourers

Carnifex - 2 x twin-linked devourers


Game: Anniliation + Spearhead

Deployment

Tyranids won the roll off and deployed first. Using a ruin Tyranids deployed so each of the Termagant squads where half covered. The ruin itself gave cover to the Tyrant, Carnifex and two Tervigons. Hive Guard were placed behind the wall of Termagants and the other Tervigon and Carnifex using these as cover.

Chaos deployed putting all Havocs in a single large ruin. The Dreadnoughts deployed at the front with the Rhinos behind them, some Rhinos using the Dreadnoughts for cover.

Turn 1

Tyranids remainly mostly static or do limited movement, reason for this is if they move up they won't be in assault range and next turn Berzerkers will pile out and Plague Marines unleash mass melta shots. Tervigons dish out feel no pain to all Hive Guard units except one when a Tervigon fails it's psychic test.

Shooting a unit of Hive Guard wrecks a Dreadnought which had been giving cover to a Berzerker unit without Kharn scoring the first kill point. A Plague Marine Rhino gets crew shaken by another unit of Hive Guard.

Chaos turn, the Rhinos move out but don't get too close as Tyranids can assault, all Rhinos pop smoke. Shooting Havocs lay down missiles at a single Hive Guard squad though thanks to cover saves and feel no pain only a single Hive Guard dies, one is left with one wound.

Kill points Chaos Space Marines: 0 Tyranids: 1

Turn 2

A single unit of Genestealers arrives from reserve outflanking on the right, they run but are still from the fight.

The HQ Tervigon breeds some Termagants which move forward ready to assault a Dreadnought and keep it tied up. A unit of Hive Guard move into cover to give more fire power to the Hive Tyrant and Termagants as two Chaos Rhinos are oncoming, though a unit of Hive Guard (one without feel no pain) is wrapped in a 'Gant bubblewrap. Rest move forward using the other wall of Gants to stop assault and use Hive Guard as shield.

Shooting Hive Guard without FnP and the unit in terrain blast a Rhino with the lone Berzerker squad in, only immobilises and weapon destroys it. Hive Tyrant has a pop and manages to wreck it. Other Hive Guard blast Kharns Rhino but do nothing while a Carnifex supporting the HQ Tervigon blasts the previously stunned Rhino and stuns it again.

In assault Termagants charge the Dreadnought; it gets terrible rolls and kills one and the Termagants keep it in combat.

In the Chaos turn one Dreadnought goes mental getting double shots, it has Termgants around the Hive Tyrant in sight, it moves closer to the Termagants ready to double blast. Berzerkers out the wrecked Rhino get ready to assault the feel no pain-less Hive Guard as the supporting Plague Marines move forward to unleash double melta from the Rhino hatch. Kharn and Co bail out their tank and move towards the Termagant bubble wrap shielding the monstrous creatures from assault while a unit of Plague Marines bails out ready to help the Dreadnought out of combat.

Shooting the mental Dreadnought drops double frags on the Termagants in front of it while Plague Marines shoot at something, can't remember what. A Carnifex eats melta and missiles and dies scoring the first kill point. Single Hive Guard gets blown to pieces by krak missiles.

In assault Kharn and Co charge the Termagants, they all die and Berzerkers consolidate into terrain in case counter assaulted. Plague Marines charge the Termagant/Dreadnought fight to assist, Termagants die. Dreadnought charges the Termagants it double shot at clearing the way for the Berzerkers to kill, maim and burn the Hive Guard who earn a kill point though the Dreadnought does poor and stays locked in combat.

Kill points Chaos Space Marines: 5 Tyranids: 2

Turn 3

Genestealers which came on last turn move into the shrine ruin where Kharn is ready to assault. Nearby HQ Tervigon spawns 17 Termagants but burns out, they end up in the shrine ruin to assist the Genestealers. Hive Tyrant moves to assault the Berzerkers with a Tervigon support. The HQ Tervigon moves forward with Carnifex support. The HQ Tervigon and the other close by give feel no pain to the Genestealers and Termagants ready to assault the Berzerkers and Kharn.

Shooting Tyrant and Tervigon blast the Berzerkers with everything they've got but only kill one! Termagants blast the Berzerkers with Kharn and fail to kill one. Carnifex blasts the stunned Rhino and wrecks it. Tervigon blasts a Rhino but does nothing. HQ Tervigon blasts Kharns empty Rhino but does nothing.

In assault Termagants and Genestealers charge Kharn and his buddies, only three Genestealers die thanks to Kharn who also kills one of his own while the Termagants kill another two Berzerkers. Tyrant and Tervigon charge the Berzerkers and wipe them out. Dreadnought locked in combat with the Termagants fails to kill them all though not many left. Tervigon charges the Rhino and immobilises and shakes it.

In the Chaos movement turn the free Dreadnought moves towards the Carnifex with two Plague Marines in support. Plague Marines by the shaken Rhino bail out ready to unleash melta as the Plague Marines near the Dreadnought/Termagant fight bail out their tank in terrain as it was shaken (perhaps by Hive Guard fire).

Shooting Tervigon gets blasted by melta from two Plague Marine units and kraks, it dies, luckily Termagants in the Dreadnought fight are just out of 6" to be affected. Carnifex eats krak missile and melta leaving it with a single wound left. HQ Tervigon eats krak missiles though it has a single wound left.

In assault Dreadnought charges and kills the Carnifex. Kharn takes a wound from Genestealers who also kill some Berzerkers, Kharn attacks back and kills two of his own guys giving Tyranids a kill point.

Kill points Chaos Space Marines: 7 Tyranids: 4

Turn 4

The last unit of Genestealers outflanks and arrives on the right flank same position as the other 'Stealer unit.

The single wound HQ Tervigon rolls up to attack a Plague Marine squad while the Tyrant moves to blast another exposed squad while the supporting Tervigon moves to support the Termagants in the Dreadnought fight.

Shooting Hive Guard fail to take out the free Dreadnought. Hive Tyrant blasts the unit of Plague Marines but thanks to T5 and feel no pain only two fall.

In assault Kharn goes down thanks to mass rending while the HQ Tervigon charges a unit of Plague Marines killing two, Tervigon takes two armour saves but passes them both. Tervigon joins in the Dreadnought fight with the Dreadnought killing a Termagant leaving one left and putting two wounds on the Tervigon, Tervigon in return immobilises it and rips off the dccw.

In Chaos turn the two Plague Marine units who bailed out their tanks last turn get back in now the tanks are no longer shaken giving them armour protection. The last unit of Plague Marines who was inside their tank last turn now bail out in terrain so they can blast the Genestealers to pieces with meltaguns and bolters.

Shooting meltas blast the Hive Tyrant but bad luck happens and not one either wounds or hits! Genestealers get blasted by melta and bolter shots from the Plague Marines, they get lucky as every single shot hits and wounds wiping out the squad as majority is out of cover. The last Hive Guard unit gets shot at by ALL Havoc squads facing 11 krak missiles; they die.

In assault the Dreadnought charges the HQ Tervigon and smashes it's face in with the dccw earning a kill point. The other Dreadnought finishes off the single Termagant though utimately is wrecked after the Tervigon gets triple pen results and triple wrecked on the damage chart.

Kill points Chaos Space Marines: 11 Tyranids: 6

Turn 5

Hive Tyrant moves to blast the Chaos Rhino the Plague Marines got back in which hasn't moved while the Tervigon goes to assault the immobilised one the other Plague Marine unit got back inside. Genestealers move through terrain but won't be in assault, the last Termagant super brood moves through cover to blast and assault the exposed Plague Marines who are in cover - weight of numbers should cause some damage.

Shooting Tyrant blasts the Chaos Rhino and only manages to immobilise and stun it. Termagants blast the Plague Marines but after 17 shots only 4 hit! Suprise surprise all Plague Marines are safe as houses thanks to feel no pain.

In assault Tyrant charges and wrecks the Rhino. Termagants charge the Plague Marines but after the dust has settled end up losing combat, failing morale and get chopped down in sweeping advance!

Chaos turn, Plague Marines bail out all Rhinos while the 3 man squad which get attacked by the Tervigon surround the Hive Tyrant. Plague Marines which just beat the Termagants move out of terrain ready to drop melta and bolter death on the Genestealers nearby as the Dreadnought comes to support with two Rhinos.

Shooting the Tyrant eats melta leaving two wounds left and kill the Tyrant Guard. Two units of Havocs blast the last Tervigon to pieces finishing it off. Genestealers eat 5 frag blasts from a Havoc squad and the Dreadnought along with melta and bolters from the Plague Marines and Chaos Rhinos, only two 'Stealers remain who fail morale and run off.

Kill points Chaos Space Marines: 15 Tyranids: 7

Turn 6

Game continues with just the Hive Tyrant remaining who blasts and assaults the three man Plague Marine squad and kills them earning a kill point. In return four meltas from two Plague Marines blast the Tyrant taking it's last two wounds. Tyranids are tabled.

Kill points Chaos Space Marines: 17 Tyranids: 8

Summary

That list played better than I thought it did. One mistake I spotted was the Dreadnought fire frenzy which shouldn't have assaulted - will teach me to play from memory and should bring my codex next time! Could have been different because the Dreadnought wouldn't have assaulted the Termagants allowing it to be assaulted by either the Tervigon or Hive Tyrant next turn. I think the Berzerkers would have got the wrapped up Hive Guard still as there was a gap around the back the Berzerkers had found.

My list findings were a bit odd. Kharn looks awesome on paper but I swear the dice wasn't rolling for him as he hit his own squad three times and given the Tyranids a kill point as wiped out his own squad; I don't like that. He just couldn't wound anything despite needing 3+ to wound the Genestealers. I did some random dice rolling after and for Kharn he missed a single attack and wounded almost everything. Just to compare I did random dice rollings for Khorne Lords in daemon weap and lightning claw form, I think every 4 pairs of dice a 1 came up for the daemon weapon while the claw got 3-4 wounds on average each time.

Berzerkers are ok just could do with one more per squad and maybe a Champion with power weap to give the squad more punch. I also think double Lords would be nice too.

Plague Marines did ok and even in 5 man squads last fine. I feel like increasing them to 6 man squads but honestly I cannot see the point.

Dreadnoughts were hit and miss. The extra missile launchers were semi helpful in knocking wounds off though Tyranids smartly kept them tied up in combat. The Dreadnought in the prolonged combat couldn't hit anything for toffee though the one which was free most of the game was smashing stuff all the time; it killed a unit of Termagants with Plague Marine help, finished off a Carnifex, killed a Tervigon and fragged some 'Stealers.

Havocs were pretty cool laying down some fire. I wish I would have full missile launchers but I think I will have to drop the 3 missile launcher squad to get another Chaos Lord and maybe Champions in the Berzerker squads.

List wise I'm liking it. Just needs fine tuning.

Game wise went well though Tervigon spam doesn't work well with kill points as Termagants swarm units, plus mass mech doesn't help and also in combat against uber tough Plague Marines and assault hitting Berzerkers. TBH I didn't expect Chaos to win and not as much as they did.

CSM are no slouches. Although Lash Oblit is the norm. CSM can still lay down the hurt. CSM codex is flavorless, not weak. Tyranid spent too many points in tervagons, close to 800. more points in stealers and gargs, or things that go through armor.

Lash doesn't work against mech which are the most common forms of lists now. Lash is a 4th edition list.

CSM codex is flavourless I will agree with you on that.

Tervigons come to 675 which isn't even 700 let alone 800. The point of them is to produce loads of Termagants (for free!) and swarm the enemy. They can produce about 100 Termagants through out the game if they are lucky.

Genestealers are cheap assault units to get camping units, failed with Havocs because they was setup in the middle.

Gargoyles are pointless in the Tyranid list as they do not go through armour at all and do not fit with the rest of the list.

Interesting report as usual, but a few questions and observations;

First off... Chaos? What the? You play a tight MSU BA army, and you go to a MSU Chaos army from that? Seems....pointless really. Other then the plagues giving you better scoring what does chaos do for you that BA doesn't? (Other then a change of pace obviously)

Second... The Tyranid army. "Conventional" wisdom seems to be spam Tervigons and swarm em with gaunts (FYI, 3 Tervigons will average ~63 Termigants, not 100) but I'm not seeing this work very often. My experience has shown that Tervigons are for holding and defending objectives, not offense. So in a KP mission they suffer doubly in that they don't really contribute much and generate kill points that are extremely easy to kill. I also question his use of crushing claws, as like I said, Tervigons are not for damage output really, dropping those would net him an extra 5 genestealers. The Carnifexes, well, I follow the standard net opinion on these, he'd be better off with Trygons or....anything else.

Facing 22 weapons that will wound your monstrous creatures on a 2+ really ruins a Tyranid player's day, as I'm sure you realize. It averages something like 12.25 wounds per turn if you don't have a cover save and everything fire. 3 Turns of that and it's GG for this Nid list.

Overall, I feel like the Tyranid army lacks hitting power really. Chipping away at stuff with termigants and Tyrant/Carnifex devourer fire isn't going to sweep units off the board. Tervigons and Carnifexes aren't exactly HtH juggernaughts and the small un-upgraded genestealers won't have a large enough impact in 2000 points. How does he fare against other opponents because you seem to beat the hell out of him every time you two play?

Third...No pictures? :(

Fourth...Lash. Yeah, it's not amazing against mech, but even using it once in a game when you need it can swing a battle so far so fast it's unreal. It went from "OMFG amazing" to "Solid".

Yea- for fire frenzy you have to remain stationary and pivot towards the closest unit in LOS and fire every weapon twice

The CSM list is solid- there is enough firepower to justify throwing dreads in there to protect the back/midfield. I think havocs are extremely overpriced and feel too Space Mariney- but they usually get the job done (and 2 attacks in CC which is nice).

Nice rep!

1. I had a Iron Warriors army which I really had to sell due to financial reasons. I still like Chaos and I really want to use them so looked at the book and thought ah that rocks so does that and this and went with that. Slightly different to my old CSM list I might add. I just like Chaos, ok!?

2. Perhaps I get lucky? I usually get 80 average getting about 11-12 per Tervigon each roll. I on average burn out two per game, luck of draw just says when though. What you said about Tervigons (objective missions and kill points) is exactly spot on. Crushing claws YMMV but they have never let me down. Carnifexes are fire support excellent against infantry. I run Trygons for nearly a year and they're a different type of beast altogether. Trygons can't get cover well and need to be in assault and when they win they stand there and get shot to pieces. If you want shooting then Carnifexes it is, they have very different roles.

Yup you're correct about the monstrous creature wounding and that's why walls of Termagants were used to shield Hive Guard which in turn shield the monstrous creatures.

Carnifexes aren't meant to be combat as already mentioned, it's pretty clear how they're been run at - the two pairs of devourers is a big clue . The list is actually mine. This was a test game just using Chaos. If you're talking about the other Tyranid player (Dave) I don't always win by how much you say. That's also the reason for no pictures btw

I don't rate lash at all. Well I do, tell a lie, I rate it as annoying


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bertimismaximus wrote:Yea- for fire frenzy you have to remain stationary and pivot towards the closest unit in LOS and fire every weapon twice

The CSM list is solid- there is enough firepower to justify throwing dreads in there to protect the back/midfield. I think havocs are extremely overpriced and feel too Space Mariney- but they usually get the job done (and 2 attacks in CC which is nice).

Nice rep!

Yeah I read the rules after game changer that one.

Still some minor tweaks for the CSM list yet though.

Havocs are over priced you're totally right but here's the eye opener I had. People like Devs right? Well lets take the Space Marine Devs which are more expensive say than Angels and Wolves but people still rate them. They cost 150 for a unit of 5 Marines with 4 x missile launchers. A 5 man Havoc unit costs 155 so only 5 points difference. Over priced? Definately, but not by a lot . And while Obliterators are cool it is weight of fire I need.

I count the cost of the Troop gants neede to unlock the troop tervagons. Nobody would normally take a unit of ten otherwise. tha makes them 675m and yes I should have mentioned that. I run CSM with dual lords, so I know lash isn't the bee's knees. I love missile havocs as well. Wish I had your lock with tervagons.

What setup do you use on the Lords? I'm going to try MoK with dual claws and will be taking two Lords to help the Berzerkers some more.

I run two Lords with wings. With with MoK and dual LC the other with Blissgiver and MoS. The tactic I use is to roll them up with a cc unit in rhinos and pop smoke. Next turn get out and detach lord. Fly lord behinde unit (safely out of PF range). Then assault with the CC unit contacting said PF then Dive in with the lord to Munch the unit. The bliss giver is there If there is a IC without EW I really need dead. Chaos is the only army where a Jump troop HQ can ride in a rhino. It catches people off guard.

Why do you use wings on the lords? How do you find the claws and blissgiver?

Why use wings on a lord? Simple. First it's PF protection Like I said before, use the unit to tie up the PF and have the lord fly over and assault the back of the unit, it's great for tacticals with a PF sarge or orks with apower claw, who would end up just one shotting your lord. Another use is Move rhino up 12" and pop smoke. Then deploy 2" move 12" and assault 6". That's a 20" reach out of your rhino. and Just the thing to take out weak long range support units out on their own. I call him the meteor because He usualy hits a unit and ties it up, kills it then gets killed in return. It's never failed me in a turny. Give him a combi-melta and an Generic daemon weapon if you want to tank hunt back field tanks. I like the Claws but I think I'd rather have the Str 5 generuic daemon weapon. The bliss giver hardly ever lets me down, and it's at I6.

Hmm good move on the power fist so basically you're just using the wings to get extra assault range. How does the other squad work with this when they cannot assault that far?

I did some random dice rolls with a khorne weapon and roughly every 4 pairs of dice a 1 would come up - I don't like that. Blissgiver would be nice or the generic.

sexiest_hero wrote:Why use wings on a lord? Simple. First it's PF protection Like I said before, use the unit to tie up the PF and have the lord fly over and assault the back of the unit

Oh my god this is so clever. And I used to think wings were meh.

Concerning daemon weapons, I tend to go with nurgle. T5 (6 on bike) can be a lifesaver and the 4+ poison is just amazing. It's like a lightning claw that works on monsters.

Congrats on the win. The berserkers did work out for you but I have to agree that adding a power fist skull champion would really help. I think I would prefer that to another HQ choice actually. I know missiles seem amazing against tyranids but what about swapping some for autocannons ?

@ sexiest_hero I've used the same technique before- you can do it with a sorceror also. It's a pretty nifty surprise in a rhino rush list- but 90% of the time he is an expensive suicide unit- detaching could be worth it sometimes... but in the end its an expensive model getting insta killed by meltas / missile launchers. Also anti-infantry lord in a squad with berzerkers will usually be overkill to whatever squad they charge. It's a cool idea none the less tho

I'm still new to 5th ed. and there's a lot of things about assault phase that don't make sense to me. some of this should probably be in YMDC, but maybe i can kill a few birds with one stone here.

Say your zerkers and wing lord charge 20 boys with a nob w pk.



Is this about right?

First thing, is if in the defender's react phase, whats to stop the orks from moving out of base contact with the lord into the zerkers? also, how does having the lord also charge spare him the power klaw hit? say you decide to resolve the combat with the zerkers and boys first. ok, maybe you kill 12 boys, and the remaining nobs and boys strike back and kill a few zerkers. does this mean they're out of attacks for the upcoming combat with the lord? say the lord scores 5 attacks and inflicts 5 wounds. in the resulting orc counterattack, couldn't his nob also get another PK attack on the lord?

Help me out here.

See the trick is to Gauge where the PK is. First most people lead with the Powerklaw. You are not allowed to move out of base contact. Only things in base combat, and 2" away can hit the chaos lord. In you pic, The lord would fly into the bottom of the pic. Then you let the zerkers charge in first, then the lord, again at the bottom. The trick is to land your lord where he gets the lest attacks back while locking the PK up with a zerker. A sick Idea is to use a lash sorcerer, to lash the PK way out of position and into a prime positiont to be tied up.

@Mercer

If the other unit can't assault it can always just stay in the Rhino.

@Bertimismaximus

A lord with wings and twin lighting claws costs 140 points. well worth the Dev/longfang unit or Hydra, manticore. For a few more points you can always tack on a combi-melta.

I prefer to put a lord or sorcerer in with plague marines or rubric if you use them to help bolster their weak assault abilities. berserkers with a hidden fist are good enough alone.

nice rep, and glad to see some chaos love

I very much prefer defilers over dreads though, but that would loose you the havocs..

minigun762 wrote:Congrats on the win. The berserkers did work out for you but I have to agree that adding a power fist skull champion would really help. I think I would prefer that to another HQ choice actually. I know missiles seem amazing against tyranids but what about swapping some for autocannons ?

The Berzerkers didn't do to bad. I'll put a power weapon in though and make use of furious charge and the extra attack. I have given autocannons some thought after I saw them as the same points cost as missile launchers but I am still not sure. The missile launchers have the AP but also the better strength against vehicles but flipside to the coin is less shots.

SevenSins wrote:nice rep, and glad to see some chaos love

I very much prefer defilers over dreads though, but that would loose you the havocs..

Tried Defilers in the past they're meh. They're not that good in assault nor shooting and just big ass targets. Plus they don't know if they want to shoot or assault, not good.