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I typically do not like over powered models in the various games I play and I want my opponent to enjoy the match, but at the same time I really enjoy heavy control/manipulation in games. (an off example was I loved Blue and White decks in Magic) defense and control are my cup of tea as being all shooting and all melee get boring.

The downside is that most opponents dislike when you mess with their mojo - so I am in conflict with what I like and how I want games to go.

I have several warcasters and plan to play them all, but after another new player picked up the Avatar of Menoth and is getting Harbinger plus a Choir, I figured eHaley would even the odds in that respect.

So..... How is eHaley looked at these days? Still OP and irritating or has that calmed and she is in the middle pack?

Epic Haley makes Santa Claus vomit with rage. She's one of the top casters in the game still.

12thRonin wrote:Epic Haley makes Santa Claus vomit with rage. She's one of the top casters in the game still.

Agreed. Epic Haley still does everything and still has a feat that might as well say "you don't get a turn".

Would you like some cheese with that? I don't see eHaley's feat as an autowin. Is it nasty? Yes. Is it better than anything anyone else in Cygnar has? I don't think so. eNemo, pHaley, Seige they all have pretty fearsome feats. In fact her feat is pretty much the same effect as pKreoss without the offensive capability. pKreoss can knock you down and then have his troops attack you for auto-melee hits and/or Def 5 vs ranged attacks. Then on your turn your surviving units can get up and either forfeit the move or attack (just like against Haley).
So, sorry guys I just don't see eHaley as the end all be all that you do.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Would you like some cheese with that? I don't see eHaley's feat as an autowin. Is it nasty? Yes. Is it better than anything anyone else in Cygnar has? I don't think so. eNemo, pHaley, Seige they all have pretty fearsome feats. In fact her feat is pretty much the same effect as pKreoss without the offensive capability. pKreoss can knock you down and then have his troops attack you for auto-melee hits and/or Def 5 vs ranged attacks. Then on your turn your surviving units can get up and either forfeit the move or attack (just like against Haley).
So, sorry guys I just don't see eHaley as the end all be all that you do.

You can be immune to pKreoss and models that use focus can shake the effect. You can't be immune to being forced to sacrifice movement or action. Then she controls your order of activation, so just in case you thought you were going to do something clever, your models are activating in the wrong order. Against an eHaley player who knows what they're doing, you don't get a turn.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Yes. Is it better than anything anyone else in Cygnar has? I don't think so. eNemo, pHaley, Seige they all have pretty fearsome feats.

All of the feats you have listed above pale in comparison to eHaleys. It is the best feat that is in the game along with really nasty spell list which combined make her one of the best casters in the game. I guess only eDenny and eGaspy have better feats in scenario play.

Metsuri wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Yes. Is it better than anything anyone else in Cygnar has? I don't think so. eNemo, pHaley, Seige they all have pretty fearsome feats.

All of the feats you have listed above pale in comparison to eHaleys. It is the best feat that is in the game along with really nasty spell list which combined make her one of the best casters in the game. I guess only eDenny and eGaspy have better feats in scenario play.

The big difference is that eHaley's feat still allows you to move, which makes it much less epic in scenario play in comparison to eDenny for example. I will say its brutal against all Melee lists, but those are generally a bad idea, eHaley or not.

eHaley really likes going first. You force your opponent's hand; if he doesn't run out of his deployment zone on his first turn, eHaley's feat can pin him to the edge of the Killbox, or, if you're playing a scenario, shut off most of his army from being able to get to control zones. She's strong regardless, but in the modern meta and with the SR2011 scenarios and small Killbox, going first is a big deal for her.

She has three weaknesses, in descending order of severity:

1. She's glass. Her feat is supremely frustrating but also taxing on the eHaley player to force activations in the right order to completely hose the turn; there's still plenty that can get to her, even if she is watching the battle through binoculars, and it only takes a couple hits.

2. She needs her army. She's not going to seal the deal on her own. You can harp about 8 focus all you want, but Echo isn't going to reliably kill anyone and Arcane Bolt is there to soften things up for the rest of the army to kill, if that. Honestly she should be using her focus to buff and defend her army every turn, because if they get wiped out, she's not the Butcher.

3. You can bait out the feat if you're smart. In my experience playing both with and against eHaley, I've found that the temptation to use her feat is really strong, especially when it's clear that she can get the entire enemy army. The problem is, if she feats too early, and gets a set-up turn followed by one turn of killing the enemy, instead of feating on a turn when her army engages the enemy so she gets back-to-back turns of handing out death, she's going to gain little more than a slightly improved board position and an enemy army that isn't nearly as dead as they should be.

Don't take me wrong, she's exceptionally strong, but there's ways to deal. Unlike stupid eDenny!

-Dis.

Why do all of the models I love either suck or are OP :-)

I will try her out and see how others react.

Go for it and enjoy! If people start complaining then they should start using different casters and/or tactics. If eHaley was an auto-win then everyone would use her and she would win every tournement/competition. Take a look at Malfred's battle report posts. You won't see her in a lot of armies.

Play it.

If they grumble grumble then tell them they know what you're
bringing, they should be able to find the hard counter.

One I like with eSevy is taking over Storm Guard and using
their attacks to auto-bounce into ehaley.

disdainful wrote:eHaley really likes going first. You force your opponent's hand; if he doesn't run out of his deployment zone on his first turn, eHaley's feat can pin him to the edge of the Killbox, or, if you're playing a scenario, shut off most of his army from being able to get to control zones. She's strong regardless, but in the modern meta and with the SR2011 scenarios and small Killbox, going first is a big deal for her.

She has three weaknesses, in descending order of severity:

1. She's glass. Her feat is supremely frustrating but also taxing on the eHaley player to force activations in the right order to completely hose the turn; there's still plenty that can get to her, even if she is watching the battle through binoculars, and it only takes a couple hits.

2. She needs her army. She's not going to seal the deal on her own. You can harp about 8 focus all you want, but Echo isn't going to reliably kill anyone and Arcane Bolt is there to soften things up for the rest of the army to kill, if that. Honestly she should be using her focus to buff and defend her army every turn, because if they get wiped out, she's not the Butcher.

3. You can bait out the feat if you're smart. In my experience playing both with and against eHaley, I've found that the temptation to use her feat is really strong, especially when it's clear that she can get the entire enemy army. The problem is, if she feats too early, and gets a set-up turn followed by one turn of killing the enemy, instead of feating on a turn when her army engages the enemy so she gets back-to-back turns of handing out death, she's going to gain little more than a slightly improved board position and an enemy army that isn't nearly as dead as they should be.

Don't take me wrong, she's exceptionally strong, but there's ways to deal. Unlike stupid eDenny!

-Dis.

Agreed with most of this, her going first is truly a big uphill battle for the opponent. In terms of the weaknesses, though:
2) This I'm not sure is a weakness of hers, really. Sure, she's not an assassin caster, but she has such amazing support (god feat, decel vs. ranged armies, accel / dead eye / TK for her stuff, TK enemy heavies backwards so they can't charge..) that she makes her army that much better

3) This I'd rank #1. Getting eHaley to feat defensively is the way to try to win the game. If she feats after her army hits yours, you'll likely lose. If you can force the cygnar player to feat to not get struck first, you're in the best spot you can be against her.

Another question about ehaley's domination thing. Say I control a reaper, and hit an opponent's model with the harpoon. Can I choose to drag it in for an additional attack like the drag rule mentions?

I can't speak to your specific example since I don't know where to find a reapers rules but, in general I would say "no" since the power specifically says make a normal attack. To me after making an attack roll and, if appropriate, a damage roll is all there is to a normal attack.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I can't speak to your specific example since I don't know where to find a reapers rules but, in general I would say "no" since the power specifically says make a normal attack. To me after making an attack roll and, if appropriate, a damage roll is all there is to a normal attack.

The Drag rule is a component of the Harpoon making a normal attack, and incorporates pushing the target and making an attack. If you Dominate a Reckoner and shoot something, the target will still suffer Flare. Drag is not activation or combat-action specific.The only activation-specific element of the Drag rule is that the Reaper can spend focus for additional attacks after making a Drag attack during its combat action. Otherwise, during any time the controller of a Reaper, even eHaley, for the duration of the attack, hits something with the Harpoon that is eligible to be dragged, it can be dragged and whacked with the Helldriver.

Unless there's a ruling on it somewhere, I don't see why you wouldn't get to Drag after hitting with the Harpoon.

-Dis.

eHaley is an insanely powerful caster and still one of the Cygnar bests, but warcasters that can force her to burn her feat defensively to prevent getting insta-gibbed (she's still made of glass) are poor matchups.

eLylyth, for example, completely out-threats her. Haley's feat works from up to 16" out; eLylyth and a couple Striders, Ravagores, and a Neph bolt thrower can reliably clear her infantry screen T1 and even have a chance to kill Haley with flaming Ravagore shots if she moved up off of her back table edge. By T2 Haley is well within their threat radius unless the Cygnar is moving their army forward in waves.

Ditto eMakeda. Molik Karn can travel 16 inches straight distance with 2" threat and up to another 4" in non-linear movement with Sidesteps. If he hits her once, she's probably dead. Twice and she's almost assuredly dead.

You would think that fast lists wouldn't do well against Haley as her entire shtick is controlling board movement, but she's almost forced to use her feat early just to stay alive against these sorts of lists. She does far better against slow moving bricks like Karchev or Terminus where her army can close distance, feat, rush in and kill some guys, ignore the weak move-or-shoot counterattack, and then follow up. Casters that force her to burn it early can simply wait her out, especially Legion lists capable of dealing with mass 1 wound infantry without breaking a sweat.

sourclams wrote:eHaley is an insanely powerful caster and still one of the Cygnar bests, but warcasters that can force her to burn her feat defensively to prevent getting insta-gibbed (she's still made of glass) are poor matchups.

eLylyth, for example, completely out-threats her. Haley's feat works from up to 16" out; eLylyth and a couple Striders, Ravagores, and a Neph bolt thrower can reliably clear her infantry screen T1 and even have a chance to kill Haley with flaming Ravagore shots if she moved up off of her back table edge. By T2 Haley is well within their threat radius unless the Cygnar is moving their army forward in waves.

Ditto eMakeda. Molik Karn can travel 16 inches straight distance with 2" threat and up to another 4" in non-linear movement with Sidesteps. If he hits her once, she's probably dead. Twice and she's almost assuredly dead.

You would think that fast lists wouldn't do well against Haley as her entire shtick is controlling board movement, but she's almost forced to use her feat early just to stay alive against these sorts of lists. She does far better against slow moving bricks like Karchev or Terminus where her army can close distance, feat, rush in and kill some guys, ignore the weak move-or-shoot counterattack, and then follow up. Casters that force her to burn it early can simply wait her out, especially Legion lists capable of dealing with mass 1 wound infantry without breaking a sweat.

Victoria's never going to not have a Squire, so her feat goes out to 18".

Elylyth is a problem for everyone but there's ways; actually eHaley makes Lylyth's alpha-strike a lot less reliable. With Deceleration and arc shield from junior the shooting gets a little dicey. Really this matchup boils down to turn order. I like going second against eLylyth because I've played a bunch of games against her and I've measured out the turn 1 threat range of the feat, so in that scenario I'm deploying a hair back from the edge of my zone, so I can't get shot first turn. Then it's an issue of weathering the storm, which isn't as bad with Decel and Arc Shield, then feating, catching everyone, and engaging all those poor, poor Striders with my Storm Guard.

Elylyth and friends are one of the reasons I think eHaley needs a bokur, btw.

The Molik missle is great, but it only works without a hitch for so long before people get wise. 16" isn't even the best he can do, depending on the caster, but if eHaley is anywhere near his realistic threat range, given that she can measure out 18" as we've discussed, then you're doing it wrong. Molik won't make it in the first turn, and he's such a priority target he'll eat at least two shots from the Hunter after Haley puts Temporal Acceleration on it.

Bottom line: Major Haley is a boss, and arguably top of the Cygnaran heap, but there's answers to everything and savvy opponents can exploit her weaknesses. To the OP, play what you like. If your opponents can't beat your list, it's not your fault if they don't get better.

-Dis.