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Note: This contains SPOILERS of certain novels and background, specifically that relating to the Horus Heresy series. You've been warned.

Reading through The First Heretic again as I wait for Age of Darkness to arrive...

The Thousand Sons appear to be one of the most popular - if not the most popular - Legions and Traitor Legions, with themselves and their primarch, Magnus, often seen as a tragic story; who sought the good of humanity and the fulfilment of knowledge, yet they turned Traitor, turned their backs on those they fought and died for.

The Primarchs are, in one way or another, brothers. Brothers who get along with one-another to varying degrees. Whilst sometimes likeable, Russ is often seen with disdain for his matter-of-fact nature and acceptance of his role. Guilliman is disliked for is arrogance, pomp and near-flawless track record, whilst Horus is loved by (nearly) all, treating the other Primarchs as the brothers that they are and embracing them so. Similarly, Sanguinius is respected and admired by all to some extent; his compassionate nature and nature charisma appealing to his brothers. So where does Magnus stand in all this?

To me at least, Magnus definitely seems like an older and wiser brother to the other Primarchs; his intelligence is known and respected, his psychic ability rivalling that of the Emperor's. Magnus is a collector of knowledge and he doesn't hesitate to distil that knowledge unto his brothers, enlightening them with some of the things he's seen. Yet Magnus is also very protective, he seeks to enlighten and protect humanity (arguably the former before the latter), recognising the ambitions of the Emperor and following them. With how much time he spends gazing into the warp, it would be crazy to think that Magnus is ignorant to the gods of Chaos. He warns Lorgar that maybe the Emperor cautioned him for a reason; further hinting of his knowledge of Chaos and the Big E's intentions to suppress them.

It appears that Magnus bargained with Tzeentch to save his Legion, save his Legion from the 'flesh change' that Tzeentch could possibly have caused; bearing many similarities to the mutations he bestows upon his followers. Magnus gambled his own life and future to save his Legion, he knew - to an extent I think - whom he was dealing with and he knew there would be a price. But I suspect he thought he could outwit Tzeentch, the changer of fates no less, and secure the deal for no loss on his part. Maybe he was hoping that the Emperors plans would work and that the Chaos Gods would be suppressed by the time the deal came to an end; effectively robbing Tzeentch of its part of the deal.

So Magnus knew of the power and the cunning of Tzeentch and the Chaos Gods and he seemed to want to fight and oppose them. So why then, does he turn to Chaos? I think Magnus was simply desperate. It displays his compassion that he would first deal with, then swear fealty to a god that he appeared to hate. He knew what Tzeentch was capable of and its malevolent nature, yet his surrendered to it anyway, seemingly in the hope of saving his sons (again). When he tried to contact the Emperor I guess he must have known what was at stake, he must have known he was dabbling in the powers of Chaos and whilst he won't have known what the Big E was working on (Psychic wards were erected *snigger* around the golden throne) he knew he was dealing with evil powers and risking a great deal to warn the Emperor about Horus. So why did he do it? I think he knew what was at stake, the true extent of the Emperors dreams; to crush Chaos and save humanity and he thought it was worth it to warn him. We know the Emperor would go to all lengths to save humanity; he lied to the entire human race to try and protect them from their greatest threat. So maybe Magnus was aware of how much he too was risking in contacting the Emperor, but he too was aware of what could be gained; risking himself to try and save humanity.

So when he and his Legion were on a knife's edge, I believe he turned to Chaos to try and protect the only ones he had left; his sons. I think Magnus was a truly protective and compassionate father and brother, risking himself and gambling with his soul to try and save them. He had lost everything else he had stood for; his fathers dream, his brothers ambitions, his own repository of knowledge and all of this robbed from him by the power he then swore fealty to in order to save his sons and/or himself.

However, if there is one flaw that Magnus possessed, then it would be overconfidence, particularly in his own knowledge. And ultimately, this bit him in the ass. Hard.

----

Make of that what you will, I just wanted to voice it and you're welcome to discuss it or reject it...

----

The omniscience of the Emperor was also hinted at, as was the true extent and complexity of his plans to overcome Chaos and he had tremendous Psychic ability and would go to all lengths to protect humanity. Maybe his current state was part of his plan? Maybe he knew what he was doing all along, or that the pinnacle of the Horus Heresy was his last gambit to try and save his dreams, maybe it worked? Maybe it didn't...
Then there's the question of why he let Lorgar carry on worshipping him for so long? Did he want to protect the feelings of his newly re-acquainted son? This doesn't sound like the Emperor though, numerous sources (including Kor Pheron) have commented on his blood-letting nature; possibly reflected in Angron.
Then there's the question of his consideration to almost eradicate the Word Bearers for their faith, considering turning them into the 3rd missing Legion it seems.

That's one of my favourite things about the Horus Heresy novels so far; they raise as many questions as the answer.

I agree it was a tragic ending for a heroic legion and their primarch.
I will say that he had as much of a hand in his own downfall as Horus or Russ did.

Oh yeah, I agree. He was as much to blame as the others, but I think he had a lot more say in it than it may seem, other than the decisive action of sending the Wolves...

Honestly, I find it really messed up. Magnus had only one rule, yes, but he could have saved us all, were the Emprah not a stiff.
In the end, we lost our wizards for vikings.
SPACE WIZARDS, for SPACE VIKINGS.

Some may think that is a fiar trade since the Blood Ravens get to be the new Sace Wizards... admitedly they also seem to be more interested in fighting each other than anyone else...

I think it's pretty heavily hinted that Magnus did not know of the chaos gods, nor that he was making a deal with tzeentch. From what I could make out Magnus thought it to be a 'powerful warp entitiy'...but yeah I agree with everything else you've said, I believe that many things that may have seemed random....were perhaps planned by powers greater then every living being in the material universe (excluding the emperor)...alas the horus heresy team are being very sneaky...I do wonder what they have planned...or if they even plan themselves

purplefood wrote:Some may think that is a fair trade since the Blood Ravens get to be the new Sace Wizards... admitedly they also seem to be more interested in fighting each other than anyone else...

Meet the new space wizards, (probably) the same as the old space wizards.

Magnus seemingly did not know the true nature of what he was dealing with- well, on some levels. I don't think he would have let his Sons tie themselves to Daemons if he had known what they were. On the other hand the spell that transported them to The Planet of Sorcerers was prepared well in advance by Magnus himself. It seems that he must have had some foreknowledge of the final outcome, at least as a potential future. It's been remarked in the lore that Tzeentch loves to obtain the devotion of his servants by removing all their other options one by one until they have no alternative. Their hasty counter-schemes and frantic recalculations while this is happening just adds fuel to his fire.

Old background also says that the Emperor didn't have any foreknowledge of Horus's betrayal, because the Chaos Gods had hidden it from him. That was one reason why he was slow to respond to the rebellion- he couldn't believe it was happening because he hadn't foreseen it! As a result of the damage done by Horus's rampage, both spiritual and physical, Humanity's future has been balanced on a knife's edge ever since.

But we are also stuck with the Space Wolves. He screwed himself AND us.

Not so sure it's that bad...
The SW have been a pretty awesome army for a long time. The main reason people don't like them is due to their tournament lists and bandwaggoning (if that isn't a word it needs to be)

Kasrkai wrote:But we are also stuck with the Space Wolves. He screwed himself AND us.

I assume you mean "we" as in humanity in the 40k universe... because "we" the players of the game 40k still have both Space wolves AND 1000 Sons to play with.

I don't think that humanity in 40k is any worse for wear in having the Space Wolves in lieu of the 1000 sons. The Space wolves are extremely good at destroying the enemies of humanity. While, granted, the preheresy 1000 sons were also extremely good at killing the enemies of humanity; they also had quite a bit of hubris and overconfidence in their warp-based abilities, as the OP pointed out. I believe the 1000 Sons were destined for tragedy even if the event in the Emperor's Palace didn't take place.
There's only so long you can play with Tzeench before you are F'd in the ear.

Just Dave wrote:The Primarchs are, in one way or another, brothers. Brothers who get along with one-another to varying degrees. Whilst sometimes likeable, Russ is often seen with disdain for his matter-of-fact nature and acceptance of his role. Guilliman is disliked for is arrogance, pomp and near-flawless track record, whilst Horus is loved by (nearly) all, treating the other Primarchs as the brothers that they are and embracing them so. Similarly, Sanguinius is respected and admired by all to some extent; his compassionate nature and nature charisma appealing to his brothers.

I kinda agree with you in respect to Guilliman. I don't think he was necessarily disliked because he was arrogant nor due to his 'pomp'. I think he was disliked because he was what the Imperium was supposed to be like and the other Primarchs in turn were supposed to be like him. Horus was a master manipulator in my opinion and used his abilities to get on side with the other Primarchs. I think Sanguinius was the truest and probably one of the most liked.

Just Dave wrote:So where does Magnus stand in all this?

Just Dave wrote:To me at least, Magnus definitely seems like an older and wiser brother to the other Primarchs; his intelligence is known and respected, his psychic ability rivalling that of the Emperor's.
Magnus is a collector of knowledge and he doesn't hesitate to distil that knowledge unto his brothers, enlightening them with some of the things he's seen.

And I would agree with the brotherly portrayal, but it's this that also possibly one of the reasons why he is maybe disliked. Not only does he tower over the other Primarchs and has Red skin, but he gives his words of wisdom to his very power, very well versed brothers.

Just Dave wrote:Yet Magnus is also very protective, he seeks to enlighten and protect humanity (arguably the former before the latter), recognising the ambitions of the Emperor and following them. With how much time he spends gazing into the warp, it would be crazy to think that Magnus is ignorant to the gods of Chaos. He warns Lorgar that maybe the Emperor cautioned him for a reason; further hinting of his knowledge of Chaos and the Big E's intentions to suppress them.

This is his main failing, Magnus thinks that he knows it all and thinks that he knows the mind of the Emperor, the one true singular being of humanity. The problem is, he is arrogant of the true nature of Chaos. He knows that there are powers there, but he doesn't know how powerful or thinks himself to be the superior. He made a bargain thinking that he got one up on the dweller in the warp, but it got one up on him.

Just Dave wrote:It appears that Magnus bargained with Tzeentch to save his Legion, save his Legion from the 'flesh change' that Tzeentch could possibly have caused; bearing many similarities to the mutations he bestows upon his followers. Magnus gambled his own life and future to save his Legion, he knew - to an extent I think - whom he was dealing with and he knew there would be a price. But I suspect he thought he could outwit Tzeentch, the changer of fates no less, and secure the deal for no loss on his part. Maybe he was hoping that the Emperors plans would work and that the Chaos Gods would be suppressed by the time the deal came to an end; effectively robbing Tzeentch of its part of the deal..

It's his arrogance again, thinking that he knew everything, that he was the most powerful thing in the warp. He had no idea of Tzeentch in all of it's glory but just thought it was one of your dopey denizens.

Just Dave wrote:So Magnus knew of the power and the cunning of Tzeentch and the Chaos Gods and he seemed to want to fight and oppose them. So why then, does he turn to Chaos?

He wimps out. He know he has done wrong and has doomed his Sons. His death and theirs is what the expected outcome should be. He betrayed the Emperor, time to pay the piper. But at the last minute, he can't even do what's right

Just Dave wrote:I think Magnus was simply desperate. It displays his compassion that he would first deal with, then swear fealty to a god that he appeared to hate. He knew what Tzeentch was capable of and its malevolent nature, yet his surrendered to it anyway, seemingly in the hope of saving his sons (again).

Well, he made a pact that went so far, why not go full hog?

He never saved his Sons, he doomed them all because he thought he knew best.

Just Dave wrote:When he tried to contact the Emperor I guess he must have known what was at stake, he must have known he was dabbling in the powers of Chaos and whilst he won't have known what the Big E was working on (Psychic wards were erected *snigger* around the golden throne) he knew he was dealing with evil powers and risking a great deal to warn the Emperor about Horus. So why did he do it? I think he knew what was at stake, the true extent of the Emperors dreams; to crush Chaos and save humanity and he thought it was worth it to warn him. We know the Emperor would go to all lengths to save humanity; he lied to the entire human race to try and protect them from their greatest threat. So maybe Magnus was aware of how much he too was risking in contacting the Emperor, but he too was aware of what could be gained; risking himself to try and save humanity.

It was his pride again, even Ahriman questioned Magnus actions. He wanted to show the Emperor that he was in control, that he could use the warp and sorcery to benefit mankind. I think he was aware, but had what he could gain more on his mind.

Just Dave wrote:However, if there is one flaw that Magnus possessed, then it would be overconfidence, particularly in his own knowledge. And ultimately, this bit him in the ass. Hard.

And an overly inflated ego

Just Dave wrote:Then there's the question of why he let Lorgar carry on worshipping him for so long? Did he want to protect the feelings of his newly re-acquainted son?This doesn't sound like the Emperor though, numerous sources (including Kor Pheron) have commented on his blood-letting nature; possibly reflected in Angron.

I think this is the case, but there is only so much moaning that a father can take. My idea on this is that Guillliman was constantly on the Emperors case about Lorgar, nearly having as big a Legion as his own, not pulling his weight in the crusade and simply not doing enough. You have to try and keep all of your kids happy.

Just Dave wrote:Then there's the question of his consideration to almost eradicate the Word Bearers for their faith, considering turning them into the 3rd missing Legion it seems.

I don't know if it would have gone this far, but if Lorgar didn't pull his socks up after the stern talking to he got from the Emperor then I think there would definitely have been implications. Maybe the Word Bearers split up into other Legions?

Pilau Rice wrote:

Just Dave wrote:The Primarchs are, in one way or another, brothers. Brothers who get along with one-another to varying degrees. Whilst sometimes likeable, Russ is often seen with disdain for his matter-of-fact nature and acceptance of his role. Guilliman is disliked for is arrogance, pomp and near-flawless track record, whilst Horus is loved by (nearly) all, treating the other Primarchs as the brothers that they are and embracing them so. Similarly, Sanguinius is respected and admired by all to some extent; his compassionate nature and nature charisma appealing to his brothers.

well Gulliman didn't ahve a near spotless record.
He had a legion twice the size of every other one yet didn't conquer nearly the same amount of systems s other legions.
Gullimen had the largest ego going, after basically being held up by half the warriors he had in the heresy (Despite being a 'master' tactician) he then walked around bossing around the other loyalists, forcing them to basically screw over the legions.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Just Dave wrote:The Primarchs are, in one way or another, brothers. Brothers who get along with one-another to varying degrees. Whilst sometimes likeable, Russ is often seen with disdain for his matter-of-fact nature and acceptance of his role. Guilliman is disliked for is arrogance, pomp and near-flawless track record, whilst Horus is loved by (nearly) all, treating the other Primarchs as the brothers that they are and embracing them so. Similarly, Sanguinius is respected and admired by all to some extent; his compassionate nature and nature charisma appealing to his brothers.

well Gulliman didn't ahve a near spotless record.
He had a legion twice the size of every other one yet didn't conquer nearly the same amount of systems s other legions.
Gullimen had the largest ego going, after basically being held up by half the warriors he had in the heresy (Despite being a 'master' tactician) he then walked around bossing around the other loyalists, forcing them to basically screw over the legions.

Yeah, I agree. Gulliman didn't have a near spotless record... and his legion wasn't everything that the Imperium was supposed to be either. Both of those were Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children.
And they were definitely disdained by some for those reasons, but Fulgrim also had many Primarch friends because of his charisma. Gulliman didn't have that much charisma (for a primarch), he was all war all the time.

NagothDaCleaver wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Just Dave wrote:The Primarchs are, in one way or another, brothers. Brothers who get along with one-another to varying degrees. Whilst sometimes likeable, Russ is often seen with disdain for his matter-of-fact nature and acceptance of his role. Guilliman is disliked for is arrogance, pomp and near-flawless track record, whilst Horus is loved by (nearly) all, treating the other Primarchs as the brothers that they are and embracing them so. Similarly, Sanguinius is respected and admired by all to some extent; his compassionate nature and nature charisma appealing to his brothers.

well Gulliman didn't ahve a near spotless record.
He had a legion twice the size of every other one yet didn't conquer nearly the same amount of systems s other legions.
Gullimen had the largest ego going, after basically being held up by half the warriors he had in the heresy (Despite being a 'master' tactician) he then walked around bossing around the other loyalists, forcing them to basically screw over the legions.

Yeah, I agree. Gulliman didn't have a near spotless record... and his legion wasn't everything that the Imperium was supposed to be either. Both of those were Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children.
And they were definitely disdained by some for those reasons, but Fulgrim also had many Primarch friends because of his charisma. Gulliman didn't have that much charisma (for a primarch), he was all war all the time.

*very minor spoiler for Age of Darkness*



I disagree, it states in Age of Darkness that Gulliman was undefeated in war, it also describes how he was writing the Codex Astartes during the heresy, hence his reason for not partaking in the fight so much, I won't go into the latter bit in more detail however because I don't want to spoil the story...

Gulliman is widely accredited as being the natural successor to the Emperor as ruler of the Imperium. I admit, he's a bit of a prick and shows very little emotion, however he's also a very adept general and what a primarch is supposed to be.
The Emperors Children weren't the aspiration of the Imperium; they were glory-hungry and perfectionist, whilst they were very good, they weren't what the Imperium strived to be and they and the Imperium had radically differing views. Look at Ultramar; that's one of the greatest systems in the human galaxy; what many systems strive to be like.
I'm not a fan of the Ultramarine, but I'm not a hater either. There's no denying it; they were very good at what they do. IIRC the conquered the most worlds, second only to Horus. AFAIK the Guilliman was intended to be the successor to the Emperor, however - as you said - he didn't have the same charisma, which led him into conflict with his brothers. He still showed his capabilities as a leader time and time again however.

I won't comment on peoples complaining of the Space Wolves being loyalist instead of the Thousand Sons, but will point out, second to the Salamanders, they're probably the Chapter/Legion that looks out for humanity most in the galaxy, the TS were very introspective.

Schteve, I'd recommend you check out my 'rank the primarchs' article (signature) to see the other side of my opinion on Magnus, admittedly written before 1st Heretic...

I haven't read Age of Darkness yet, so that's news to me.
But remember, The Emperor's Children were the only Legion allowed to were the Imperial Aquilla because they were shining beacons of the Imperium.

Oh yeah, but that was before they let their ego and perfection-seeking get in the way, the Emperor let them wear the aquilla after Fulgrim's speech, he didn't know how shallow they'd become AFAIK.

Just Dave wrote:Oh yeah, but that was before they let their ego and perfection-seeking get in the way, the Emperor let them wear the aquilla after Fulgrim's speech, he didn't know how shallow they'd become AFAIK.

True, they were certainly fatally flawed. But like most Traitor legions... they had good intentions

Magnus' pride and hubris blinded him to the true nature of the warp and his control over it, and Tzeench was more than happy to let him believe it. He did appear to have a sort of realization when he burst into the Golden Throne and came face to face with Big E, but by that time, he'd already gone too far (not to mention E was furious about Magnus basically breaking his fabulous machine into pieces).

His downfall was really quite sad, however, I'm not really sure why he didn't just give himself up to Russ to be taken back to the Emperor. It even seemed like he was considering it for a while, I think his sons had other plans though.

Did Horus actually give the order to Russ to wipe out the Tsons in Prospero Burns? I remember Russ trying to talk through the skjald, although I don't really think that was working.

I remember reading in one of the books that E said his vision of the future was clouded, so I don't really think he knew what was happening. I wonder how much he actually depended on that omniscience to plan out what he was going to do?

Just Dave wrote:

NagothDaCleaver wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Just Dave wrote:The Primarchs are, in one way or another, brothers. Brothers who get along with one-another to varying degrees. Whilst sometimes likeable, Russ is often seen with disdain for his matter-of-fact nature and acceptance of his role. Guilliman is disliked for is arrogance, pomp and near-flawless track record, whilst Horus is loved by (nearly) all, treating the other Primarchs as the brothers that they are and embracing them so. Similarly, Sanguinius is respected and admired by all to some extent; his compassionate nature and nature charisma appealing to his brothers.

well Gulliman didn't ahve a near spotless record.
He had a legion twice the size of every other one yet didn't conquer nearly the same amount of systems s other legions.
Gullimen had the largest ego going, after basically being held up by half the warriors he had in the heresy (Despite being a 'master' tactician) he then walked around bossing around the other loyalists, forcing them to basically screw over the legions.

Yeah, I agree. Gulliman didn't have a near spotless record... and his legion wasn't everything that the Imperium was supposed to be either. Both of those were Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children.
And they were definitely disdained by some for those reasons, but Fulgrim also had many Primarch friends because of his charisma. Gulliman didn't have that much charisma (for a primarch), he was all war all the time.

*very minor spoiler for Age of Darkness*



I disagree, it states in Age of Darkness that Gulliman was undefeated in war, it also describes how he was writing the Codex Astartes during the heresy, hence his reason for not partaking in the fight so much, I won't go into the latter bit in more detail however because I don't want to spoil the story...

Gulliman is widely accredited as being the natural successor to the Emperor as ruler of the Imperium. I admit, he's a bit of a prick and shows very little emotion, however he's also a very adept general and what a primarch is supposed to be.
The Emperors Children weren't the aspiration of the Imperium; they were glory-hungry and perfectionist, whilst they were very good, they weren't what the Imperium strived to be and they and the Imperium had radically differing views. Look at Ultramar; that's one of the greatest systems in the human galaxy; what many systems strive to be like.
I'm not a fan of the Ultramarine, but I'm not a hater either. There's no denying it; they were very good at what they do. IIRC the conquered the most worlds, second only to Horus. AFAIK the Guilliman was intended to be the successor to the Emperor, however - as you said - he didn't have the same charisma, which led him into conflict with his brothers. He still showed his capabilities as a leader time and time again however.

I won't comment on peoples complaining of the Space Wolves being loyalist instead of the Thousand Sons, but will point out, second to the Salamanders, they're probably the Chapter/Legion that looks out for humanity most in the galaxy, the TS were very introspective.

Schteve, I'd recommend you check out my 'rank the primarchs' article (signature) to see the other side of my opinion on Magnus, admittedly written before 1st Heretic...

The Luna Wolves conquered more than the ultrasmurfs
The only reason he succeeded was because Sanguinus fell

Horus wrote:
Sangiunus should of been warmaster, not me

And dorn was too busy trying to eradicate chaos,

And why would he be writing the Codex Astartes (I'm not challenging the fact) during the crusade, what a fething pessamist

NagothDaCleaver wrote:

Kasrkai wrote:But we are also stuck with the Space Wolves. He screwed himself AND us.

I assume you mean "we" as in humanity in the 40k universe... because "we" the players of the game 40k still have both Space wolves AND 1000 Sons to play with.

I don't think that humanity in 40k is any worse for wear in having the Space Wolves in lieu of the 1000 sons. The Space wolves are extremely good at destroying the enemies of humanity. While, granted, the preheresy 1000 sons were also extremely good at killing the enemies of humanity; they also had quite a bit of hubris and overconfidence in their warp-based abilities, as the OP pointed out. I believe the 1000 Sons were destined for tragedy even if the event in the Emperor's Palace didn't take place.
There's only so long you can play with Tzeench before you are F'd in the ear.

A Thousand Pardons, my opinions can get the better of me.
I meant to imply that loyalist Thousand Sons could have made and enormous difference, both in universe, and in game. The ban on their psyker powers is, as I believe, the event that made them so confined into their powers. Why does the Emperor hate them? How bad can it be?

Just Dave wrote:
Gulliman is widely accredited as being the natural successor to the Emperor as ruler of the Imperium. I admit, he's a bit of a prick and shows very little emotion, however he's also a very adept general and what a primarch is supposed to be.

And this, in my opinion, is why Guilliman was considered arrogant. The other Primarchs wanted to be the successors to the Emperor and to be the favorite, who wouldn't want to inherit the Imperium. But these beings of unmatched power being told to act and be like one of their brothers isn't going to sit well.

Just Dave wrote:The Emperors Children weren't the aspiration of the Imperium; they were glory-hungry and perfectionist, whilst they were very good, they weren't what the Imperium strived to be and they and the Imperium had radically differing views. Look at Ultramar; that's one of the greatest systems in the human galaxy; what many systems strive to be like.

This could be because of them being one of the smallest Legions trying to prove themselves once they had been removed from the shadow of another, same as the Alphas being the baby Chapter. I think the Emperors Children were recognised at being the best in warfare, but also this is what made them frowned upon due to their aloofness.

Just Dave wrote:I'm not a fan of the Ultramarine, but I'm not a hater either. There's no denying it; they were very good at what they do. IIRC the conquered the most worlds, second only to Horus. AFAIK the Guilliman was intended to be the successor to the Emperor, however - as you said - he didn't have the same charisma, which led him into conflict with his brothers. He still showed his capabilities as a leader time and time again however.

I liked the portrayal of Guilliman in The First Heretic and the Ultramarines. I don't think they are one of the best Chapters, that would be the Imperial Fists

Just Dave wrote:Schteve, I'd recommend you check out my 'rank the primarchs' article (signature) to see the other side of my opinion on Magnus, admittedly written before 1st Heretic...

Already been their Dave, but will refresh me memory.

Pilau Rice wrote:. I don't think they are one of the best Chapters, that would be the Imperial Fists

+1

Just Dave wrote:[*very minor spoiler for Age of Darkness*

I disagree, it states in Age of Darkness that Gulliman was undefeated in war, it also describes how he was writing the Codex Astartes during the heresy, hence his reason for not partaking in the fight so much, I won't go into the latter bit in more detail however because I don't want to spoil the story...

Gulliman is widely accredited as being the natural successor to the Emperor as ruler of the Imperium. I admit, he's a bit of a prick and shows very little emotion, however he's also a very adept general and what a primarch is supposed to be.
The Emperors Children weren't the aspiration of the Imperium; they were glory-hungry and perfectionist, whilst they were very good, they weren't what the Imperium strived to be and they and the Imperium had radically differing views. Look at Ultramar; that's one of the greatest systems in the human galaxy; what many systems strive to be like.
I'm not a fan of the Ultramarine, but I'm not a hater either. There's no denying it; they were very good at what they do. IIRC the conquered the most worlds, second only to Horus. AFAIK the Guilliman was intended to be the successor to the Emperor, however - as you said - he didn't have the same charisma, which led him into conflict with his brothers. He still showed his capabilities as a leader time and time again however.

I don't think you can say Guilliman was 'intended' to be the successor to the Emperor, since there wasn't supposed to be any need for a successor.

*very MAJOR spoiler for Age of Darkness*