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Alright! Here are my ideas for what happened to Legions II and XI based off the Horus Heresy books:

1. In The First Heretic it is strongly implied that the remains of the legions got rolled into the Ultramarines


2. In Prospero Burns the space wolves say how it wouldn't be the first time marines had fought marines, and that they had been called on to do it once before


3. In False Gods, Horus has a vision where he is at all the primarch capsules, he puts his hand on capsule XI and thinks of all the glories that would "never come to pass"


4. in The Lightning Tower, Malcador and Dorn talk about how the legions downfalls had been "separate tragedies" and how they may have been unheeded "warnings of what was to come"


So what does that give us for facts?

Before Horus's fall to chaos, Legions II and XI were lost in some way.
Legion XI's primarch would never come to the glories expected of the Primarchs.
The Space Wolves took out one Legion in warfare.
The fates that befell the two missing legions were separate, and warnings of what was to come (Horus Heresy traitors, Chaos corrupted Primarchs)
The two missing legions were erased from archives at the same time, and at this time their numbers were added to the Ultramarines.

Theory:
Legion II: Primarch falls to chaos, takes his legion with him. The Space Wolves do to them the same as what they did to the Thousand Sons, and succeed in killing Primarch XI and probably crippling the Legion in the process. Their remaining numbers are brought back into the fold of the Imperium.

Legion XI: In the chaos God's attempts to destroy the Primarch project, this Primarch is crippled/possessed/killed instead of merely scattered. His intended glories never come to be. He never rises to prominence in his planet's society, he never leads Space Marines in war. If he is not dead on arrival, the Emperor kills him personally upon meeting him and knowing what went horribly wrong.

We know that Legion XI's Primarch was the one whose glories never came to be, so by deduction Legion II is the one that the Space Wolves had to subdue.

After the XI Legion rebels, the Emperor is so upset by this that he orders the memory of both legions erased. Perhaps the Death of Primarch II, while tragic, was eclipsed by the betrayal of Legion XI. The idea that the Emperor's Primarchs were corruptible was too much for the Emperor to let be known. Their Primarchless Space Marines were stripped of their name and rolled into the Ultramarines.

A great number of the Ultramarine's 2nd founding successor chapters were in fact originally made up of marines from the Missing Legions. It is possible that their inner circle may maintain this knowledge in the same way that the Dark Angels maintain knowledge of The Fallen in their Deathwing inner circle.

Agreed on the facts, but there is also the fact of chaos as a unknown factor.
The space marines weren't able to identify the opposition at the whisperheads correctly.
Even Horus didn't know much, sadly the Interex wasn't able to swap intelligence with Loken.

First heretic shows 10 as planned turncoats, so 11 of 20 isn't happening and one of the 10 shown is also refuting to be swayed.
Gives us 9 known ones plus 1 who managed to escape the claws of chaos.

Now, your theory has merit, the lost primarch could be lost through chaos interference and may have died or was crippled to serious to live.
His Legion wouldn't gather glories to record in his name and would be easy to join to another Legio as these marines are most likely from Terra, as all of the first batches. So just a basic foundation of loyal Terrans and a name to be changed. Name changes happend, Primarch did it, Big E could do it too.

The purged is where I disagree.
Yes it is hinted that Russ had something to do with it. Lorgar also lost a brother, the purged one is therefore known to his brethren.
Still doesn't mean this Primarch and his Legion took part in the great crusade. Dorn talked to malcador how he preferred to have 20
Legions and the answer was the 2 are lost to us. Lost is a Legion that was rolled into UM. Lost is a Legio who was destroyed.

Counter theory:
It wasn't turning to chaos.
It was turning itself that was the hint at things to come.
The Legio was founded like any other, moving out to seek their Primarch.
But their Primarch didn't land on a planet of humans. He began his life amongst aliens.
Those didn't kill or harm him, no they raised him in their world view, made him one of their own.
When the crusade encountered them, the Primarch opposed the Imperial truth and had to be shanghait ( like angron ).
The emperor ordered the death of the xeno and the Legio brought to be his obeyed. The Primarch never forgave them.
The lack of human ressource, kept the Legion small and the Primarch took the first chance to abandon the Imperium.
The losses of the initial assault had to be replaced and the new rescruts had their heads fille with the Primarchs anti-imperial visions.
It took some time to find them all, maybe the lost Primarch has been searched for long and the purged primarch had enough timeto dispatch of the loal marines in accidents whilst growin his own cult of xenos loving marines....
The emperor found out and sent Rus to take them out. Theyre called purged since they all got erased in body, ideas and records.
An oath was sworn, compliance was irrefutable and to pledge for the imperium also. The one to refute was undone.

Well from the comment about glories never coming to pass it suggests that he didn't make a bad choice, whateve happened was forced onto him. I would guess he was either hurt before he could rise to power or brought up in a culture that didn't fit the emperor views.

Good counter theory 1hadhq. It could definitely be a non-chaos betrayal that caused them to be purged by the SW.

I suspect Legion 11's Primarch died before ever maturing. Its the simplest answer to "Glories that never came to pass".

Or maybe Primach XI never left his pod...doesnt the first spoiler mention there is a Primarch still in a pod?

Horus was looking at the growing vat for Primarch XI. He knew that XI's glories would never come to pass, so we can take that to mean that he at the very least never lead his Marines in battle, and most likely never rose to prominence in his society. The most straightforward explanation is that chaos succeeded in killing him in the scattering, or perhaps even possessing him. This also links it to the "warnings" sentiment expressed in the Lightning Tower.

Him just dying in pod would be a bit boring, and wouldn't link in so well with the "warnings".

Being raised by Xenos could explain why the traitor primarchs have not (yet) talked all that much about their lost brother(s) after falling to chaos. There are few reasons I can think of for the traitor primarchs to honor their oaths to not speak of the matter.

ph34r wrote:Horus was looking at the growing vat for Primarch XI. He knew that XI's glories would never come to pass, so we can take that to mean that he at the very least never lead his Marines in battle, and most likely never rose to prominence in his society. The most straightforward explanation is that chaos succeeded in killing him in the scattering, or perhaps even possessing him. This also links it to the "warnings" sentiment expressed in the Lightning Tower.

Him just dying in pod would be a bit boring, and wouldn't link in so well with the "warnings".

I agree, it is highly unlikely that the eleventh simply died in his pod. And it is contradicted by others pieces of fluff. For instance, in older codices and rulebooks, it is clearly stated that 20 pods were sent drifting through the warp and that all of them reached human worlds. All of the 20 primarchs "were adopted by various human parents" and "rose to prominence in their human societies". So no primarch was ever raised by xenos.

It is also clearly stated that all of the 20 primarchs were found by the emperor and given command of their respective legions. 20 legions took part in the great crusade.

But then, what does this quote from false gods means: "glories that would never come to pass"?

I think that Horus simply referred to the fact that the two lost legions' glories would simply never be celebrated or remembered. Their glorious deeds were expunged from imperial records, their very memory fading from Humanity's history. Their glories would never be passed down the generations, in punishment for these two legions' fall from grace. I think this is what was meant by Horus in this passage.

I'm pretty confident that "feeling the untapped glories t hatmight have lain ahead for what grew within, but knowing that they would never come to pass." strongly implies that he never attained said glories. It is worded pretty unambiguously.

Good theories. I would really like it if it ever came out that one of the primarch's had been raised by xenos. I don't think they will ever come out and say either way however.

Laodamia wrote:For instance, in older codices and rulebooks, it is clearly stated that 20 pods were sent drifting through the warp and that all of them reached human worlds. All of the 20 primarchs "were adopted by various human parents" and "rose to prominence in their human societies". So no primarch was ever raised by xenos.

This is true, however, Games Workshop has no problem ret conning information in older codecies and older background material. So I wouldn't be surprised if they changed this to suit what they are doing these days.

Glories that would never come to pass doesn't necessarily imply that Primarch 11 never rose to prominence. It's more likely that he( or even she) never fought for the Imperium. I would suggest that this Primarch refused to join the Emperor, because he valued his freedom, didn't see The Emperor as his father or was head of some other empire so was opposed to The Imperium. The 2nd Primarch was present so had to fight his brother and witnessed the Emperor kill his brother personally. The 11th Legion was absorbed by The Ultramarines having never met their Primarch. Plagued by these images and having lost his loyalty, the 2nd seceded from the Imperium and disappeared. Russ was charged to destroy the 2nd. He succeeded. All records were purged from existence.

though i doubt any of the phimarchs were raised by xenos, some could have gone against the emperor out of either a wish for peace with xenos, or their own personal goals/desires/etc.

Also if primarch 11 rose in human society as Laodamia mentioned it doesn't mean it had to be in a violent manner. The big E could have came to planet X and saw Primarch 11 leading a peaceful non-violent passive society.

And though all the legions took part in the great crusade, it does not mean that the primarch himself took part. He could have just been a figurehead of the legion, too caught up in either his own concepts, or didn't believe in or was trained in fighting. This could be a warning in the sense that they must defend humanity and stay away from corruption, since primarch 11 could have become "corrupted" by peace to the point that whole worlds were sacked due to his inability to fight.

or maybe just leaned toward diplomacy a bit too much, tried to have a chat over tea with Khorne and it didn't go too well....


just some thoughts

Laodamia wrote:
It is also clearly stated that all of the 20 primarchs were found by the emperor and given command of their respective legions. 20 legions took part in the great crusade.

Why does every other post in this thread ignore these facts?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Laodamia wrote:
It is also clearly stated that all of the 20 primarchs were found by the emperor and given command of their respective legions. 20 legions took part in the great crusade.

Why does every other post in this thread ignore these facts?

A lot of old facts from rulebooks have been contradicted by the Horus Heresy series.

I didn't ignore it, and I believe a few others didn't as well, though I must agree with ph34r, older rulebooks tend to be contradicted, even newer rulebooks are full of contradictions!!

 Laodamia wrote:

ph34r wrote:Horus was looking at the growing vat for Primarch XI. He knew that XI's glories would never come to pass, so we can take that to mean that he at the very least never lead his Marines in battle, and most likely never rose to prominence in his society. The most straightforward explanation is that chaos succeeded in killing him in the scattering, or perhaps even possessing him. This also links it to the "warnings" sentiment expressed in the Lightning Tower.

Him just dying in pod would be a bit boring, and wouldn't link in so well with the "warnings".

I agree, it is highly unlikely that the eleventh simply died in his pod. And it is contradicted by others pieces of fluff. For instance, in older codices and rulebooks, it is clearly stated that 20 pods were sent drifting through the warp and that all of them reached human worlds. All of the 20 primarchs "were adopted by various human parents" and "rose to prominence in their human societies". So no primarch was ever raised by xenos.

It is also clearly stated that all of the 20 primarchs were found by the emperor and given command of their respective legions. 20 legions took part in the great crusade.

But then, what does this quote from false gods means: "glories that would never come to pass"?

I think that Horus simply referred to the fact that the two lost legions' glories would simply never be celebrated or remembered. Their glorious deeds were expunged from imperial records, their very memory fading from Humanity's history. Their glories would never be passed down the generations, in punishment for these two legions' fall from grace. I think this is what was meant by Horus in this passage.

Yes, but that comes from an older rule book that is no longer valid. For example, all primarch's were not raised by human parents. Leman Russ was raised by wolves before being captured and rising up in human society to become the wolf king of Fenris and Konrad Curze had no adopted parents and raised himself. I'm just saying that if he lore has changed since then, it's not really a reliable source.

My theory

11. He lands on a non-violent human planet who use psychic powers to both pacify their population and maintain an infrastructure like the Eldar however they never fall to their urges and basically are a Utopia when they are found by the Emp. 11 refuses to comply and demonstrates his own power by forcing a bunch of marines to drop their weapons and leave the planet. The Emp realizes this danger and obliterates 11 like he did Horus.. The kicker 2 is with the Emp when this happens it gnaws at him until he rebels agaisnt the Emp and tries to flee to Chaos abd the Warp but the Wolves intercept and destroy them.

Holy thread necromancy!

Wow, this is amazing. There is so much in this thread that has got my mind spinning.

First of all, to the OP @ph34r, I love your theories, and as a school teacher I applaud your use of references to the text to support your argument.

Secondly, @1hadhq...blew my mind.

Thirdly, I agree that GW is changing (or writing) these stories as we speak. The "Unremembered Empire" shows this clearly--it was never discussed in any fluff before the book, so it must have been pretty thoroughly forgotten, right? And clearly many of the HH writers are interested in this...there are too many references to "empty plinths" or "seats with plain, undyed cloth" or "statues with faces obliterated" to think otherwise. I don't think THEY know, actually, and that is part of what makes it fun.

I think it's pretty clear Russ (the executioner) and the Rout had fought Astartes before, and I totally agree that (Terran) Astartes could have been incorporated into other legions, especially one like the Ultramarines. The Shattered Legions (there was a limited release one about Corax this summer for example) demonstrate this fairly well--Astartes are willing to follow other Primarchs. It's pretty genetic, actually.

But the lost Primarchs being raised by Xenos, mutated or infirm, or simply peace-loving--those are all awesome theories!

I seem to recall hearing that the author who put forward the "Ultramarines absorbtion" rumor said it was a untrue In universe rumor. given the antagionistic feelings the WBs have the for UMs it seems pretty fair to suggest that the WVBs might have some rumors along those lines as sort of a sour grapes to deflect Gulliman simply being better at orginization and logistics then the other primarchs.

BrianDavion wrote:
I seem to recall hearing that the author who put forward the "Ultramarines absorbtion" rumor said it was a untrue In universe rumor. given the antagionistic feelings the WBs have the for UMs it seems pretty fair to suggest that the WVBs might have some rumors along those lines as sort of a sour grapes to deflect Gulliman simply being better at orginization and logistics then the other primarchs.

Yeah, Aaron Dembski-Bowden has came out and said several times that it is basically in universe gossip, the Ultramarines have never absorbed another Legion.

I like to think that one Primarch deified himself, and the Emperor purged him with the Custodes.

In the 3rd HH book does it not say that one of the legion's geneseed was faulty and they didn't mature correctly.

Uh, the Wolves did fight Astartes before the Scouring of Prospero, but that was actually against the XIIth Legion, the World Eaters. That was an attempt to stop the use of the butchers nails which resulted in some bloodshed. Known as the night of the Wolves. It's covered in Betrayer.

I don't think THEY know, actually, and that is part of what makes it fun.

They don't. The specific details of the Horus Heresy have never previously been codified by GW, not even internally. It was simply "The Horus Heresy happened a long time ago. Half the Emperor's sons betrayed him and the other half. The Emperor won, barely, lost half his loyal sons, and was put into the Golden Throne. This began the GrimDark. The End." The Lost Legions are the same way. They were just "the Lost Legions, oooh! Mystery!" and that was that. There's no previously-existing fluff about them, even internally.

Then they decided to milk this cash-cow and create a series of novels on the topic. The authors involved do meet with the studio and one another to discuss broader plot elements, but they are, otherwise, simply making this story up as they go along. We already know how it ends, we just don't know the specifics of getting to that end. That's what the HH series is about.

 Psienesis wrote:

I don't think THEY know, actually, and that is part of what makes it fun.

They don't. The specific details of the Horus Heresy have never previously been codified by GW, not even internally. It was simply "The Horus Heresy happened a long time ago. Half the Emperor's sons betrayed him and the other half. The Emperor won, barely, lost half his loyal sons, and was put into the Golden Throne. This began the GrimDark. The End." The Lost Legions are the same way. They were just "the Lost Legions, oooh! Mystery!" and that was that. There's no previously-existing fluff about them, even internally.

Then they decided to milk this cash-cow and create a series of novels on the topic. The authors involved do meet with the studio and one another to discuss broader plot elements, but they are, otherwise, simply making this story up as they go along. We already know how it ends, we just don't know the specifics of getting to that end. That's what the HH series is about.

Yeah, I heard much the same message right from the mouth of Adam and Jes (the writer ones...lots of people with those names in GW it seems) in Nottingham this summer. They like the mystery still, and are only revealing it a little at a time...oh, so tantalizing. I bought a bunch of HH novels this past summer and have been reading to "catch up" but I looked online the other day to see what was going on and there are already 5 new books since the summer ones I bought! So...obviously plenty of story to flesh out. Anyway, they are looking "back" rather than forward, they said. Rather than move "on" the plot line (like Nagash is doing in Fantasy) they are "freezing" the story in the 40k universe right where it is. The Dark Angels will never catch Cypher, the Blood Angels' Flaw will continue, etc. etc.

At least for a while. Me, I see another milk cow in the form of "The Return of the Primarchs!"...

But that's another story for another thread.

They always talk about lost, maybe they got banished or even gave the emperor the finger? One of the Primarchs was Lebowskius, one day he said Fugg it let's go bowling, The whole legion vanished into the webway to find the Black Bowling-alley

As GW becomes more and more desperate for rapid releases to keep up sales, they'll explain what happened to the 2nd/11th imo.

A legion could still take part in the great crusade without having a primarch, all of them did so at some point. Maybe by the time they found their Lord, he was already dead.

The thing about writing a mystery is that, whether or not you plan to reveal it, you (the writer) need to know the facts.

I would like to think that the Black Library writers have this in mind and have a consensus as to the (broad) details of the nature of the lost legions. Even if they don't plan to ever reveal the truth, the facts they choose to reveal will remain consistent (e.g. one book won't suddenly say that the legions were lost in the Eye of Terror or wiped out by the Eldar) unless it's presented as in-universe rumours or gossip.

Is it possible that one of these Primarchs is still alive somewhere?

I'm not thinking about being aligned with Chaos but maybe turned to a xeno race? How about a powerful character that went the Necron route and gave himself over to technology and is yet to wake from their tomb, or was a gifted psychic and now lives with either the Eldar, DE, other unknown race. Or what about if he (I've assumed a male but why not a female Primarch?) he/she turned their back on humanity and set off into deep space? Maybe he/she is out there beating up Tyranids, or who knows what else...