Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Say I have my group of nestled fire warriors (range 30"), a broadside (range 72") and a plasma rifle (range 24")

I have several valid targets none of which are more than 48" away.

How legal and ethical is it for me to shoot my broadside at something (which I KNOW is in range) in order to measure the range to see what targets my fire warriors and plasma rifle can hit.

I'm a bit torn as its in a way premeasuing but in otherways its sensible as troops have ways of rangefinding their targets (and indeed things like tanks have secondary guns which used to be used for this purpose)

Just wondering what dakka think? Is there a consensus? Should we just allow pre-measuring anyway?

You can absolutely shoot your long range gun first. As long as you're using it as a guesstimate and not dragging it in different directions and moving over different units, it's fine.

It is entirely legal for you to measure range to a unit, and in doing so gain information about the approximate distance (unless units are directly in between you and the target unit, of course) to other units.

I think it is fine BUT a little bit sneaky. But it is perfectly reasonable as long as you don't swing it around a lot

The rules clearly state that when resolving a unit's shooting, you measure from that unit to the target unit.

You can't swing the tape measure around like you can in movement. But you can certainly use the information gained from the legal measurement of one unit's shooting to help you decide where to target another unit's shooting.

Mannahnin wrote:The rules clearly state that when resolving a unit's shooting, you measure from that unit to the target unit.

You can't swing the tape measure around like you can in movement. But you can certainly use the information gained from the legal measurement of one unit's shooting to help you decide where to target another unit's shooting.

What you said

To be honest, they should just adopt the Fantasy rules when it comes to pre-measuring and just straight up allow it. It is silly that it is the 41st millenium and these mutant super solider space marines don't even have range finders.

But, as it stands, it should be find so long as you only measure from the unit you fire from to the target you are firing to. Don't swing the tape measure around. That is cheatsies.

Kurce wrote:To be honest, they should just adopt the Fantasy rules when it comes to pre-measuring and just straight up allow it. It is silly that it is the 41st millenium and these mutant super solider space marines don't even have range finders.

But, as it stands, it should be find so long as you only measure from the unit you fire from to the target you are firing to. Don't swing the tape measure around. That is cheatsies.

According to a lot of people, shotguns should be template weapons, phase out is unfair, and requiring people to use non-precise dice makes this an unbalanced system...

Premeasruing is illegal. Period. I was caught once at a tournament measuring to see if my trooper was in the opponent's table corner. He said he could have called the TO, but he'd let it slide. If I catch people premeasuring, I politely call them on it.

Just play the rules as written, stop trying to be shady, get better at guesstimating ranges before measuring, then prepare the waaaaaaambulance for 6th edition.

Solo - this isnt premeasuring. This is gaining information from a perfectly legal measurement.

The two are different.

no, it's being shady and loose with the rules. If all the targets happen to be in the same line of fire, then maybe, maybe, this isn't premeasuring ranges. Either way, its measuring a shot before committing to it. What would be more shady would be if he was lining up a lot of long range weapons with shorter ones in order to do so, not measuring but just declaring the short range shots, then if something was out of range, suddenly whipping out the tape measure again to find another target.

Long story short, no, this is not cool.

I have the same argument that if shooters in Fantasy get to premeasure, then 40,000 years in the future, someone had to have invented rangefinders...

No, it isnt. Read EXACTLY what I posted again, yes?

If you measure a 72" line from unit to target unit, and you incidentally gain knowledge, that is 100% clear and within the rules; you have NOT pre- measured as you have not performe dthe specific measuring action defined in the rulebook.

I'm taking this back to the OP...

Phototoxin wrote:How legal and ethical is it for me to shoot my broadside at something (which I KNOW is in range) in order to measure the range to see what targets my fire warriors and plasma rifle can hit.

It is not legal, nor is it ethical. If I asked you to remeasure your shorter ranged shots, would you reply that you already had? and what if, by parallax or misreading you were off? Would you argue that you had already measured and you were fine?

Phototoxin wrote:I'm a bit torn as its in a way premeasuing but in otherways its sensible as troops have ways of rangefinding their targets (and indeed things like tanks have secondary guns which used to be used for this purpose)

Sensible has nothing to do with it. There are no rangefinding rules in the system and you freely admit that you are premeasuring in a way, there fore, no, you may not premeasure. Play the game correctly, and no one will have issues with you; play fast and loose with the system, you will simply frustrate your fellow gamers.

I would say it's fair to declare your broadsides to shoot, measure and fire. You just have to use the same process with the rest of your units. There is no rule that says you have to shoot the shortest range weapons first. It's not like you are getting an exact measurement from the second [or third] unit to the target. Your approximation could still be wrong and you miss.

That is perfectly legal play, and good too.

Me and my friends have just house ruled that at any time during the game, anyone may measure any measurement. It makes for a much better game.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I'm taking this back to the OP...

Phototoxin wrote:How legal and ethical is it for me to shoot my broadside at something (which I KNOW is in range) in order to measure the range to see what targets my fire warriors and plasma rifle can hit.

It is not legal, nor is it ethical. If I asked you to remeasure your shorter ranged shots, would you reply that you already had? and what if, by parallax or misreading you were off? Would you argue that you had already measured and you were fine?

But he only measured the Broadside and has yet to measure the other units yet. You can't ask him to remeasure what he hasn't done yet. Do you understand what he is saying at all. He still has to choose shoots for his other units and measure to them.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:I'm a bit torn as its in a way premeasuing but in otherways its sensible as troops have ways of rangefinding their targets (and indeed things like tanks have secondary guns which used to be used for this purpose)

Sensible has nothing to do with it. There are no rangefinding rules in the system and you freely admit that you are premeasuring in a way, there fore, no, you may not premeasure. Play the game correctly, and no one will have issues with you; play fast and loose with the system, you will simply frustrate your fellow gamers.

There are some units and wargear that lets you premeasure. He not premeasuring, he is using all the available "tactical" info, to best "general" his army.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I'm taking this back to the OP...

Phototoxin wrote:How legal and ethical is it for me to shoot my broadside at something (which I KNOW is in range) in order to measure the range to see what targets my fire warriors and plasma rifle can hit.

It is not legal, nor is it ethical. If I asked you to remeasure your shorter ranged shots, would you reply that you already had? and what if, by parallax or misreading you were off? Would you argue that you had already measured and you were fine?

Phototoxin wrote:I'm a bit torn as its in a way premeasuing but in otherways its sensible as troops have ways of rangefinding their targets (and indeed things like tanks have secondary guns which used to be used for this purpose)

Sensible has nothing to do with it. There are no rangefinding rules in the system and you freely admit that you are premeasuring in a way, there fore, no, you may not premeasure. Play the game correctly, and no one will have issues with you; play fast and loose with the system, you will simply frustrate your fellow gamers.

OK try this:

BS - broadside range 72
XV8 - crisis suit w/ plasma rifle range 24
FW - fire warrior range 30
T1 = target/enemy 1
T2 = target/ enemy 2

BS - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -T1
XV8 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - T2 T1
FW - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - T1

From shooting the broadside at target 1 I know that it's within 30" and therefore ripe for Fire warriors to shoot at..

Thats perfectly fine.

According to a lot of people, shotguns should be template weapons, phase out is unfair, and requiring people to use non-precise dice makes this an unbalanced system...

Premeasruing is illegal. Period. I was caught once at a tournament measuring to see if my trooper was in the opponent's table corner. He said he could have called the TO, but he'd let it slide. If I catch people premeasuring, I politely call them on it.

Just play the rules as written, stop trying to be shady, get better at guesstimating ranges before measuring, then prepare the waaaaaaambulance for 6th edition.

When I say "they", I mean GW. The game would just be simpler and easier if you could measure any distance you want at any time. GW made the rules to allow it in Fantasy, not sure why 40k doesn't...

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I'm taking this back to the OP...

Phototoxin wrote:How legal and ethical is it for me to shoot my broadside at something (which I KNOW is in range) in order to measure the range to see what targets my fire warriors and plasma rifle can hit.

It is not legal, nor is it ethical. If I asked you to remeasure your shorter ranged shots, would you reply that you already had? and what if, by parallax or misreading you were off? Would you argue that you had already measured and you were fine?

Phototoxin wrote:I'm a bit torn as its in a way premeasuing but in otherways its sensible as troops have ways of rangefinding their targets (and indeed things like tanks have secondary guns which used to be used for this purpose)

Sensible has nothing to do with it. There are no rangefinding rules in the system and you freely admit that you are premeasuring in a way, there fore, no, you may not premeasure. Play the game correctly, and no one will have issues with you; play fast and loose with the system, you will simply frustrate your fellow gamers.

Sorry, what the OP is suggesting is perfectly valid. He is not premeasuring for his other unit, he is measuring and firing his long range weapon, and using the information to guessimate whether his shorter ranged units can hit the same unit. He would have to still declare and measure to shoot from the shorter ranged units.

Actually, this brings to mind a related question about premeasuring. Is this an issue for things other than weapon/assault ranges? Specifically, I'm wondering for purposes of things like teleport homers, KFF, or psychic hood. If something is giving a passive effect, are you allowed to measure the radius of that effect at any time, or do you have to wait for a trigger condition (deep strike location declared near the homer, shots at a unit near the mek, psychic power used near the librarian) to check whether the effect happens? I've been playing with the more restrictive interpretation that I can't measure until it's too late to change anything, but I've never been quite sure whether this falls under the purview of premeasuring.

I've been playing

Shooting and assaults are the two cases in which you are prohibited from pre-measuring.

I will often try a ranging shot with a unit in order to get a measurement of the range to an enemy. What I do is to extend the tape measure to the range of my unit's gun, and measure from the firing unit. I don't see why this would be objectionable.

It is legit to pre-measure in other situations. For example if I want to move my Tyranids and keep them in Synapse range, I can move, measure, and adjust the movement if necessary.

In general you cannot measure unless allowed to. The rule is you can only measure when you are given permission to, or you must do so in order to satisfy the rule.

So for teleport homers, where you dont scatter if you are placed within 6", you CANNOT premeasure: you have no permission to do so, and you have no requirement to do so in order to comply with the rule. IF you place it within 6" you dont scatter - you are not required to place it within 6".

Conversely lesser daemons MUST appear within 6", so you have no option on this - you must measure to make sure you are not breaking a rule.

Kill - the above is why i would disagree with you on Synapse. You are not required to measure it during your movement, so you may not measure it.

Movement is a bit of a dodgy subject, though, since you're allowed to move a unit back and forth however much you like (until you start moving a different unit) and thus it helps with eye-triangulation significantly.

As far as the situation with shooting a longer ranged weapon from a different unit first is concerned... you're not only allowed to, but have to measure from firing unit to the fire-upon unit (no further, though).

I do agree with the comment that they should just up and allow pre-measure, though WH40K is less of a strategical and more of a gambling game than Fantasy is.