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2011/05/11 23:06:58
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
Alright, let's start this discussion with this: I think the GK would be completely erased With each fallen Custode having killed many, many GK.
The Custodes are bigger, better, and only marginally weaker than Primarchs.
There are 10,000 of them.
Their Guardian Spears are just like the GK halberds...except they have bolters/huge lasers in the end.
They are lead by Valdor.
They out-number the GK 10:3
They're Gold. Gold.
They have armour that has been said by several sources to be better than any astartes PA, so it would be like artificer armour, except it is more trim, meaning that if anyone were to argue using game mechanics, they would probably have Fleet of Foot.
In The First Heretic One custodian had a full clip of bolts pumped into him, his head cut off, mounted on a pole, and was still alive, after having killed three astartes in 3 seconds.
Also in that book, a group of 3(?) custodians fought 11 possessed Chaos Space Marines, including a possessed chapter master, and killed 7(?)
2011/05/12 00:00:50
Subject: Re:Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
tarnish wrote:dont be so sure. the gk have an impressive arsenal of nasty that the custodes would have a hard time matching. im sure they have their tricks too, but the gk are all psykers which counts in the long run. Are they meeting up in the field or is this a siege battle? one on one i think a custodes would prevail, but it would be a close one. Custodes are not that big mate. not compared to a marine anyway.
They kind of are. A custode is to an Astartes what and Astartes is to a guardsman. Valdor, physically the same as every other custode, beat horus in a one-on-one fight.
2011/05/12 02:24:37
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
Brother Coa wrote:They are 2 most powerful SM in the Imperium, they will never fought one another...
Didn't Loken say much the same thing about his Brother Astartes in Horus Rising, almost word for word?
That was different, these are not ordinary Astartes...
It is not that they arent ordinary Astartes, it is that they ARENT astartes. Their process of creation is entirely different, and so are they.
Also, as for them having battled in the last 10,000 years, I remember some fluff that said that sometimes daemons come through the hole in reality beneath the imperial palace and the three hundred custodes in the emperor`s personal presence fend them off regularly. Plus there`s the blood games...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Who actually voted GK...I am just wondering...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/12 02:25:40
2011/05/12 19:43:34
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
im2randomghgh wrote:Alright, let's start this discussion with this: I think the GK would be completely erased With each fallen Custode having killed many, many GK.
Ok Custodes are cool and everything but they aren't psykers and don't appear to have any protection against attacks of this nature. That's why during the assault on Prosepro the Sisters of Silence were sent with them. The Grey Knights are not that much different to pre heresy Thousand Sons. The Grey Knights, if they were fully 'Warded' up would annihilate the Custodes. If it was a hand to hand battle it would still be a close run thing.
im2randomghgh wrote:The Custodes are bigger, better, and only marginally weaker than Primarchs.
No, they are supposed to be a stronger and only slightly larger than an Astartes. Abnett claims that, though Custodians are slightly larger, on average, than Space Marines, their fighting skills are more or less equal Not sure where you are getting the 'marginally weaker than Primarchs' thing from. A Primarch would break a Custodes as much as an Astartes. The strength of the Custodes is their ability to think on their own. But reading First Heretic you will also know that this is their weakness. Astartes fight together as a group.
.
im2randomghgh wrote:There are 10,000 of them.
Ok, not sure where that is coming from either. They were never intended to be little more than the Emperor bodyguards or emissaries so that number seems way to big to me.
im2randomghgh wrote:Their Guardian Spears are just like the GK halberds...except they have bolters/huge lasers in the end
Grey Knights have Nemesis Force weapons and Storm Bolters. Halbreds are cool yeah, but what else do they have in their arsenal? The state of the Custodes now is more than likely different to when the Heresy was raging.
im2randomghgh wrote:They are lead by Valdor.
Are they really? Even now after 10,000 years? We don't know this.
im2randomghgh wrote:They out-number the GK 10:3
As above on the numbers, are you sure?
Hmm, doing some digging I have found a reference to 10,000 blades but this is back in 3rd ed. Need to do some more digging.
im2randomghgh wrote:They're Gold. Gold.
Whoop!
im2randomghgh wrote:They have armour that has been said by several sources to be better than any astartes PA, so it would be like artificer armour, except it is more trim, meaning that if anyone were to argue using game mechanics, they would probably have Fleet of Foot.
But then the Grey Knights armour is not your regular Astartes armour either.
im2randomghgh wrote:In The First Heretic One custodian had a full clip of bolts pumped into him, his head cut off, mounted on a pole, and was still alive, after having killed three astartes in 3 seconds.
What, alive, after his head was cut off ... impressive.
im2randomghgh wrote:Also in that book, a group of 3(?) custodians fought 11 possessed Chaos Space Marines, including a possessed chapter master, and killed 7(?)
I don't think those numbers are highly accurate either, i think it was more like 7 on 3 but will double check tonight and repost.
King Pariah wrote:Custodes, the original Captain-General of the Custodes, Constantin, beat Horus in a sparring match, and he wasn't/isn't even a primarch.
Source please?
ph34r wrote:The leader of the custodes is on par with a Primarch in power.
Source for that? I would guess that the leader of the Custodes is powerful, but only on par with the standing of a Chapter Master
I would sat that both are as Elite as each other as they both serve very specific roles.
*sigh* I will do this one by one.
1. No. If it was a hand to hand battle the GK would be torn to shreds. Their ONLY advantage is that they can psyker the Custodes from afar.
2. Their fighting skills are not more or less equal. On the WH40K wiki it says they are to SM what SM are to guard.
3. This was already addressed by someone else.
4. The Custodes have plenty up their arsenal-they have terminators, dreadnoughts, and many other nasty surprises.
5. Yes, they are. Valdor survived the Heresy (big surprise) and shortly after stepped down from being a high-lord so he could take a more active role in protecting the Emperor. Custodes, just like astartes, don't age. He is alive.
6. Someone else addressed this too. It is now actually 10:1.
7. GOLD.
8. Yes but GK armour is still PA. Custodes armour isn't. Custodes armour is lighter, leaner, and more powerful than GK armour. No comparison.
9. Yes, it is.
10. definately 7 dead.
11. Search up Valdor on the WH40K wiki. Did you even bother doing research before you posted?
NO, chapter master doesn't even begin to compare to Valdor. Marneus Calgar would be out-classed by any single Custode.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not to mention Custodes go around being invisible.
That too
Plus, they (being ~9 feet tall) are able to infiltrate noble houses, which would probably have security that could hold out a guard regiment, unnoticed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/12 19:45:16
2011/05/13 23:45:22
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
I think it's a bit unlikely to be true as Horus was the best of the Primarchs after all
Okie Doke. I don't really view Horus as the "best" of the Primarchs. Best in what way?
Generally the best over-all. Where others may excel in a few specific fields, Horus was the best all rounder, and had the ambition to lead, but no the arrogance to believe himself as the best.
Well obviously in the end he turned out to be PRETTY DAMN ARROGANT considering he thought he could lead better than the Emperor.
Also, 100 v 100 would depend. If it was all shooting, custodes would lose, considering their guns are on-par with those of the GK but the GK can shoot and TK at the same time.
If we're talking melee, conversation is finished, go home. If you are already home, go walk your dog. If you are home and dog-less, then go jog.
2011/05/14 00:36:48
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
iproxtaco wrote:Well, he was made The Warmaster because he had ambition but not the arrogance of The Lion or Rowboat Girlyman.
In the end, he fell not because he was arrogant in the first place but because he was angered by the Emperors departure, leaving him just like that to carry on the Crusade, and because he was partly deceived by the Chaos Gods.
I stand by that 1 vs 1 it would be the Custodes winning. Anywhere more than about 30 vs 30, the odds begin to swing in the Grey Knights favour, up to 100 vs 100 where I think they would definitely triumph.
...what about 10,000:1,000?
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Also, as I already meantioned, it has been stated that Custodes are to Astartes what Astartes are to Guardsmen, and while GK ARE a cut above astartes, Custodes are only very,very slightly weaker than Primarchs. Do you think a Librarian could kill a primarch? No.
There is no conceivable way in which Valdor would be dead. He survived the HH, the Custodes haven't been in active combat since then, and they are immortal. What possible way could you suspect he died? Especially considering he was more powerful the Horus, which means that Valdor surpassed the primarchs, which means the only mortal in the galaxy who could beat him in one-on-one would be the EoM.
And Custodes armour IS better. In The First Heretic, A custodes had one full bolter clip unloaded into his face at point-blank range and his armour held completely. It even stated specifically that Custodes armour, despite being ornate, is better than even artificer armour, and looks better.
Plus, it's gold.
And it wasn't early custodes that went bare-chested, it is modern ones. Something about mourning rituals for the EoM? They still have their armour though, they just choose not to don it as they prefer their black-painted chests to represent their unending grief at the death of the only human being to ever be free from sin.
2011/05/14 01:03:48
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
im2randomghgh wrote:*sigh* I will do this one by one.
Yes, sigh indeed.
im2randomghgh wrote:1. No. If it was a hand to hand battle the GK would be torn to shreds. Their ONLY advantage is that they can psyker the Custodes from afar.
Hmm, ok ... so a psyker can't use it's powers to increase it's own abilities and only fire fireballs and lightning bolts? Where is your proof that a Custodes is that much better than a Grey Knight?
im2randomghgh wrote:2. Their fighting skills are not more or less equal. On the WH40K wiki it says they are to SM what SM are to guard.
You're quoting from the wiki again. Please, provide an actual source for this.
im2randomghgh wrote:4. The Custodes have plenty up their arsenal-they have terminators, dreadnoughts, and many other nasty surprises.
True as from the perspective of the Sabretooth game and the Visions series, which is pretty much one and the same. Other than these there has been no mention of Dreadnoughts or Speeders in the Heresy series however. Perhaps after 10,000 years of never leaving Terra they have had cut backs. We don't know the current situation of the military might and capability of the Custodes.
im2randomghgh wrote:5. Yes, they are. Valdor survived the Heresy (big surprise) and shortly after stepped down from being a high-lord so he could take a more active role in protecting the Emperor. Custodes, just like astartes, don't age. He is alive.
Well, we'll have to disagree on this one. There's no proof that he is alive or dead, unless you have a specific source saying he is alive? 10,000 years is an awfully long time to be alive.
im2randomghgh wrote:6. Someone else addressed this too. It is now actually 10:1.
And I haven't found an actual source for this. I'm not saying it isn't there, but both Draco and the 4th EdRB make no reference to numbers of Custodes, so I guess it is in the 3rd EdRB.
im2randomghgh wrote:8. Yes but GK armour is still PA. Custodes armour isn't. Custodes armour is lighter, leaner, and more powerful than GK armour. No comparison.
Ok so where does it say it's better than power armour. It's more ornate and frilly but does the same job. The early Custodes only wore trousers and a helmet and were bare chested.
im2randomghgh wrote:10. definately 7 dead.
Didn't check this one yet but will do when I have a chance.
im2randomghgh wrote:11. Search up Valdor on the WH40K wiki. Did you even bother doing research before you posted?
Quite clearly I did yes, otherwise I wouldn't be posting at all. But their is no reference point to the sparring match between Horus and Valdor on there. So I have no further point to check. Was it in Blood Games or some other background, if you know and aren't relying on the wiki then please, provide the source and I will find out.
im2randomghgh wrote:NO, chapter master doesn't even begin to compare to Valdor. Marneus Calgar would be out-classed by any single Custode.
That's your opinion.
im2randomghgh wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not to mention Custodes go around being invisible.
That too
Plus, they (being ~9 feet tall) are able to infiltrate noble houses, which would probably have security that could hold out a guard regiment, unnoticed.
If an Astartes was trained to be an assassin or infiltrator then they could be able to do this too. But they are soldiers.
I see that you are as dedicated to the Custodes as you are to your Tau ...
Either way I like Grey Knights, the pre Ward ones anyway, and I like Custodes .The Custodes may or may not have 10,000 in number but I think if they were to ever get in an fight of equal numbers it would be a close run thing.
Sadly Pailia Rice, I have to side with Random on this.
The Custodes have always been known to be what Astrates are to guard. Custodes are to Astrates.
Custodes are the best of the best. Trained in every martial skill.
They have free will.
Rice you can't really agrue with me in that in this agruement you can't really support the grey knights as there are more custodes and they are way more powerful than the grey knights.
Sadly you have not supported the Grey Knights.
We do know there are 3,000 Custodes. As The Emperor at the head of the orkish wagh! lead an entire 1 chapter worth of custodes against the orc wagh, and it was the largest wagh, TOO DATE. 3 million green skins. And the custodes lost.... 5........ Out of 1000
Yeah The grey knights lose hundreds of their own just to kill a small ork wagh.....
The Grey knights also do not have access to Imperator and Warlord Titans....
The Custodes literally have 300,000,000 Ships at their command. And the Imperium would side with custodes in the fact they trust them more. Than the back stabbing sister killer Grey Knights.
I do agree with you preward the Grey knights would of had an awesome sparing match between them and the custodes.
Though I ask for a mend
How about a Champion of the Emperor (Custode) vs a Grey Knight Brotherhood Champion. This way its not like a debate of who is the best.
Now I shall be getting back to my other duties. Ash out.
+1 for agreeing.
The one thing I disagree with is that there aren't 3,000 Custodes, there are definately 10,000. 3,000 USED to be the GK numbers, but now they're chapter-strength.
Also, they've had 13,000+ years of experience.
2011/05/14 22:52:49
Subject: Re:Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
iproxtaco wrote:It harkens back to the point a made earlier -
Spoiler:
During First Heretic, Argel Tal and his squad observe from afar, their accompanying Custode ofrce fighing on Forty-Seven Sixteen.
"They're not brothers," Argel Tal said. "Watch how they move. See how each one fights his own war, alone, unsupported by the others. They're not like us. These are warriors, not soldiers."
The thought made his skin crawl. It must have had the same effect on Torgal, for he voiced the words on his captain's mind.
"Lions," the sergeant said. "They're lions, not wolves, hunting alone instead of as a pack. Gold," he added, and tapped the chestplate of his armour, "not grey."
Pretty big flaw fighting against the Grey Knights.
Read pages 126-128 in The First Heretic for the rest.
Each individual Custode is a better warrior than a single Grey Knight. Put 100 Custodes against a force of 100 Grey Knights, the Grey Knights would work together, use their Psyker abilities, and would win.
No. A pack of wolves can take down a lion, but that doesn't help you if the lions are even to the wolves in terms of numbers, and it REALLY doesn't help when they out number you 10:1.
And yes, custodes battle-armour IS superior to artificer, as it allows freer movement and greater speed while offering the same protection as the best armour space marines are physically capable of possessing.
I think it's a bit unlikely to be true as Horus was the best of the Primarchs after all
No, he wasn't. Horus himself said something along the lines of: Sanguinius, Roboute Guilliman, and Rogal Dorn would have been as good/better warmasters, but I know da emprah da most hahaha.
Obviously with better grammar.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, on the wiki it said guardian spears were force weapons with bolters on the end o.0
I thought they were power weapons.
If they're force weapons it means either
A. Custodes are latent psykers
B The Emperor's presence powers their blades (unlikely since the custodes used to fight half the galaxy away from the emperor on occasions)
or
C. Being in the Emperor's presence for extended periods of time made them psychichally conductive.
...
or
D. Someone confused their terms (unlikely due to wiki mods that check all edited articles)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/14 23:28:00
2011/05/15 13:35:22
Subject: Re:Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
Btw, IIRC Alpharius is moderately larger than the average Space Marine. Whilst not the size of most other Primarchs, it was only Omegon or larger-than-normal Space Marines that stood in for him...
Ah of course, my mistake. Still, point about him not being massive stands.
I think that'd be funny. An Alpha Legion raid against ultras, then Pasanius ends up fighting Alpharius, and looks down at him
2011/05/15 16:26:21
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
im2randomghgh wrote:Also, on the wiki it said guardian spears were force weapons with bolters on the end o.0
I thought they were power weapons.
I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons. It may just be the title or an error, but I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons or that they have psychic abilities. it wouldn't surprise me if they were latent psykers, but nonetheless I've never heard them referenced as being force weapons.
The point remains about them not being on par with Primarchs also.
On the wiki it said they were FW. But yeah, they are probably still power-weapons, because although they COULD be latent, and it actually makes a lot of sense, I have never heard it said elsewhere that they are force weapons.
And yes, they are still just barely inferior to a primarch.
2011/05/15 17:11:39
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
im2randomghgh wrote:Also, on the wiki it said guardian spears were force weapons with bolters on the end o.0
I thought they were power weapons.
I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons. It may just be the title or an error, but I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons or that they have psychic abilities. it wouldn't surprise me if they were latent psykers, but nonetheless I've never heard them referenced as being force weapons.
The point remains about them not being on par with Primarchs also.
On the wiki it said they were FW. But yeah, they are probably still power-weapons, because although they COULD be latent, and it actually makes a lot of sense, I have never heard it said elsewhere that they are force weapons.
And yes, they are still just barely inferior to a primarch.
I disagree. I think 'barely inferior to a Primarch' is a massive overstatement of their abilities. I know theres the whole thing about Valdor beating Horus in a sparring match, I haven't actually read the story, so I could be completely wrong, but is it not conceivable that Horus wasnt actually fighting to his full potential, what with it being a non serious sparring session against an ally he knew to be his inferior in combat?
And even if thats not the case, just because Constantin Valdor, (who was exceptional) beat a Primarch in a sparring bout, that doesnt mean, or even imply that every Custode is 'barely inferior' to a Primarch.
There is a legion of 10000 Custodes. If creating beings who are 'Barely Inferior' to the superhuman Primarchs is easy enough that the Emperor created a legion of ten thousand of them, why aren't regular Astartes made to be 'Barely inferior to Primarchs'? It makes no sense for Custodes to be so powerful.
Because the creation process for custodes is unfathomably time-consuming, complex, and, since the Emperor doesn't actually DO anything anymore, unnecessary.
2011/05/15 19:16:18
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
iproxtaco wrote:It's implied, or even stated that the Custodes 'legion's Primarch is the Emperor. The Grey Knights Geneseed is the most pure of all Astartes and couldn't have come from anywhere else but the Emperor. Both are basically 'sons' of the Emperor, its just that The Custode creation process is more extensive and precise, creating an individual rather than the Grey Knights relative 'batch' process.
Well there WAS that theory that GK gene-seed is made from a genetic cocktail...I believe it more actually.
Also, if anything, custodes are even more incorruptible than GK. When Alaric had the collar of Khorne, he came so close to corruption, he relied upon his psychic shield and that is how GK remain pure.
Custodes do so through pure mental discipline and faith (more than GK even) in the Emperor. If you clamp a collar of Khorne on them, it doesn't matter, still incorruptible. If you do so to a GK, than he is no more resistant than a regular astartes.
Custodes have more of the Emperor's gene in them than any others (barring the Primarchs and, of course, the EoM), which is why they are more perfect than the Emperor. Astartes are poor shadows of Custodes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Dave wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:And yes, they are still just barely inferior to a primarch.
How can you still think that when you have no evidence, quite the opposite in-fact?!
Did you even read the link to the wiki page I posted? It stated plainly that they are only marginally less Chuck Norris than a primarch.
Yes, I just used Chuck Norris as an adjective.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/15 19:17:58
2011/05/15 19:20:45
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
winnertakesall wrote:Imo, the Grey are the most Elite. The Adeptus Custodes wheere aparently made from the seed of the Emperor, the primarchs were also made from the genetic material of the Emperor. The Primarchs fell, and were not incorruptable, who is to say that the Custodes aren't aswell? The Grey Knights on the other are completely incorruptable, as incorruptable as the Emperor himself.
On the primarch thing, exactly, the Primarchs are not incorruptible, and the Astartes are lesser versions of the primarchs.
The custodes are closer than anyone to the Emperor (both biologically and literally) and know no duty other than service to the emperor. The Primarchs also had duty to their legion, and when loyalty is divided, you aren't truly loyal to either. Half were loyal to one, half to the other.
2011/05/15 21:39:22
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
iproxtaco wrote:Random, everything you say is either just something you think, or backed up by outdated sources. The Custodes are on par or marginally better physically than a Grey Knight, with equal or marginally better armour and inferior weaponry and experience.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Toastedandy wrote:Imma gonna go with the Custodes at the height of their power, but better than primarchs? i think not. Just because Valdor beat a primarch once does not mean that every single custodes can. After all Valdor was the leader (or something)
But I personally dont think they are immortal, I think they died off along time ago. I think now its more of a home alone job with cutouts of custodes on a railroad track going round and round the palace.
With BB guns rigged to fire through the dog door and trip wires to send a comical boxing glove punch you out a window.
King Pariah wrote:I hate to be the jerk, but debating over Fiction is quite hilarious. Personally, I say we ask Matt Ward to make the Custodes their own codex just to see what the almighty has to say about this. But if we look at the game currently, and before you ask me for the source I'm gonna say hunt it down yourself because I've been working heavy machinery all day and am too exhausted, if you try playing Custodes, you're apparently supposed to use the Grey Knights as a basis for them which I think would more or less imply that they are fairly close to equal in strength. Though one (the Custodes in my opinion because Constantin Valdor is such a badass) may be at least marginally stronger than the other. King Pariah out.
If Matt Ward wrote the codex, each custode would be on par with the EoM.
2011/05/15 23:38:48
Subject: Re:Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
Elector wrote:Assuming the OP's question was "who is more elite?", then the answer is the Custodes, hands-down. Being part of the elite guard of the God and Holy Land of the IoM is no small matter, and no matter how incorruptible you are, daemon-hunting is no where near the same level as the Custodes in the hierarchy as the elite of the elite.
On the other hand, if the question is "are they better in a fight?", which is what the OP's beginning statement seems to be going for, then it depends whether we are using current Custodes or Pre-Heresy. Pre-Heresy, they had the best equipment, including Dreadnoughts and Terminator armor, and the GK equipment was influenced by theirs. Now though, apparently they abandoned their armour, so that combined with their individual organization could mean their doom...
...That is until you realize a single Custodes can take down 10 normal SM on his own and all-together they out-number the GK 10:1.
They still have their equipment, they just don't wear it for ceremony's sake. If the Emperor were in danger, they'd be wearing gold within the hour.
2011/05/16 01:52:29
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Yep astartes don't age.
I have also heard that the custodes number 10,000 and still have their pre-heresy jetbikes (Source:word of mouth)
They age like any human, but there bodies will remain strong and youthful forever, it's just on the outside.. They're functionally immortal in body but there minds are susceptible to the effects of extreme longevity.
Excluding any warp travel dickery and dreadnoughts, The Blood Angels chapter master Dante is considered to be the oldest Space Marine alive. At 1000 years old he is considered positively ancient.
And the head chaplain of the Ultramarines is considered very old at around 500.
Astartes live much longer than humans, even with rejuvenant drugs, sure. But they are by no means immortal.
Actually, I am pretty sure Darnath Lysander is older than dante...
And, in Salamanders, there was an astartes from the Heresy who was still alive, not chaos, not dread, not stuck in the warp, just kinda sittin`there.
