Poll |
 |
|
 |
Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/13 00:58:38
Subject: [Poll] The Length of a standard Warhammer 40k In Real Life
|
 |
Focused Fire Warrior
5 miles north of Funkytown
|
It seems that even though OUR standard games (1500-2000 points) take 2-3 hours at a time. Now obviously this wouldn't be the case if the battle was really going on with manuevers and charges simultaniously and in conjunction with each other.
If we assumed that recon was utilized and the forces know of each others' positions (so starting turn 1 in the game), how long would a battle take.
I would think that these fights would take around 7 or so minutes with combat taking up the minorityof the time, this is mainly because most armies charge into each other and, unlike the game, CC combat would be quick and brutal. Now their could be differences, like a tau vs eldar game would probably take longer than an ork vs ork game.
Vote and leave your comments so we can get a consensus on the length of a battle in the 40k universe
|
The best thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything it's far too late to stop reading it.
-Courtesy of TheBlueRedPanda
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/13 05:14:42
Subject: [Poll] The Length of a standard Warhammer 40k In Real Life
|
 |
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
|
30 minutes. Space marines dont just charge out into the open and die, they take cover, and would be very hard to dig out, along with most other races. Tanks are also much harder to destroy IRL. Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean, have you ever been paintballing? you're 30 metres away and thers like 16 of you, and it takes at least 15 minutes.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/13 05:15:47
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/13 05:41:46
Subject: Re:[Poll] The Length of a standard Warhammer 40k In Real Life
|
 |
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
|
I would say it really all depends on what units are chosen and how many end up being chosen. 3000 point Space Marine vs 3000 points Space Marine could take a long time
depending on which legions were fighting of course
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/13 05:42:34
I will...never be a memory |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/13 10:36:57
Subject: Re:[Poll] The Length of a standard Warhammer 40k In Real Life
|
 |
Focused Fire Warrior
5 miles north of Funkytown
|
30 minutes. Space marines dont just charge out into the open and die, they take cover, and would be very hard to dig out, along with most other races. Tanks are also much harder to destroy IRL.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, have you ever been paintballing? you're 30 metres away and thers like 16 of you, and it takes at least 15 minutes.
See, I don't see space marines just staying in cover the whole game, yea, it is tactically sound, but why need cover when most of the time you can just walk in the open and kill anything in your path (going of what the guys of Spacemarine are doing)
And in the case of paintballing, if you get hit once, you're down, that's sadly not the case with most armies in the 40th millenium
I would say it really all depends on what units are chosen and how many end up being chosen. 3000 point Space Marine vs 3000 points Space Marine could take a long time
Well first off in my original post I stated that in this case it would be a battle from 1500-2000 points
And the other reason I think this would be a quick duke out is that this is supposed to be either two armies stumbling unto each other (Dawn of War), and then rushing into a big fight, or it is two armies dash and grab to get vital pieces of equipment ( Seize Ground), OR it is a 'race' to capture the enemies headquarters so additional forces elsewhere can be helped (capture and control)
And we have to assume that their is some kind of schedule/ battle plan which needs to be followed (time limit in game) in order to accomplish one of the above missions before it is too late to do any good. Most of the time, these two 'armies' are just a smaller part a battle across a whole world, apoc style
When you're enemy has an Warhound close to the area where you need to take that objective, you need to go fast and get out
|
The best thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything it's far too late to stop reading it.
-Courtesy of TheBlueRedPanda
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/13 10:45:24
Subject: [Poll] The Length of a standard Warhammer 40k In Real Life
|
 |
Impassive Inquisitorial Interrogator
|
I'd say probably up to an hour at the very least... Close combat is actually anything but quick. If the majority of the army is tied in close combat then the fight will drag for hours.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/13 10:46:31
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/13 10:54:51
Subject: [Poll] The Length of a standard Warhammer 40k In Real Life
|
 |
Sneaky Sniper Drone
Wiltshire, UK
|
GeckoOBac wrote:I'd say probably up to an hour at the very least... Close combat is actually anything but quick. If the majority of the army is tied in close combat then the fight will drag for hours.
Close combat would be very quick indeed! its not a fencing match or a WWE bout its a balls to the wall fight to the death with pointy sticks and such, think of a fight on the street how long does that take??
Seconds or maybe a minute or two? people get tired quickly and mistakes creep in, a swirling mellee on the battle field is not going to take long just think about it.
Space marine assault marine charges into a squad of CSM, both sides draw their weapons and pne swings his weapon. The other defends the stroke and tries to bring his pistol or a second weapon to bear to get the advantage throwing lightning quick strokes and swipes at each other and it only takes one to connect before they go down. Probs talking about 10-20 seconds per individual engagement, then factor in all the other people who could intervene and stab you in the back etc the whole thing aint gonna last long!
|
3000pts Tau Tros`san Sept
3000pts Chaos Space marines |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/13 11:56:43
Subject: [Poll] The Length of a standard Warhammer 40k In Real Life
|
 |
Impassive Inquisitorial Interrogator
|
Rogerio134 wrote:GeckoOBac wrote:I'd say probably up to an hour at the very least... Close combat is actually anything but quick. If the majority of the army is tied in close combat then the fight will drag for hours.
Close combat would be very quick indeed! its not a fencing match or a WWE bout its a balls to the wall fight to the death with pointy sticks and such, think of a fight on the street how long does that take??
Seconds or maybe a minute or two? people get tired quickly and mistakes creep in, a swirling mellee on the battle field is not going to take long just think about it.
Space marine assault marine charges into a squad of CSM, both sides draw their weapons and pne swings his weapon. The other defends the stroke and tries to bring his pistol or a second weapon to bear to get the advantage throwing lightning quick strokes and swipes at each other and it only takes one to connect before they go down. Probs talking about 10-20 seconds per individual engagement, then factor in all the other people who could intervene and stab you in the back etc the whole thing aint gonna last long!
Sorry but medieval battles (talking about those couple hundreds men fights) could take up to 12 hours. I grant you, a lot was maneuvering, but close combat fighting is a long and strenuous thing. We're not talking street fights. We're talking melee fight between trained combatants with real weapons and armor. And in those times, one side would surrender/flee with perhaps only tens of dead. Here we're normally talking about total annihilation... Believe me: it's NOT going to end quickly.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/13 20:27:39
Subject: Re:[Poll] The Length of a standard Warhammer 40k In Real Life
|
 |
Focused Fire Warrior
5 miles north of Funkytown
|
Sorry but medieval battles (talking about those couple hundreds men fights) could take up to 12 hours. I grant you, a lot was maneuvering, but close combat fighting is a long and strenuous thing. We're not talking street fights. We're talking melee fight between trained combatants with real weapons and armor. And in those times, one side would surrender/flee with perhaps only tens of dead. Here we're normally talking about total annihilation... Believe me: it's NOT going to end quickly.
You are right, huge medieval armies clashing in hand to hand combat was very prolonged, but mostly because they were HUGE medieval armies who could afford to lose thousands of soldiers a day (see the seige of anticoch).
Warhammer 40k is different for two reasons:
1. 40k is way more shooting oriented than its medieval counterparts, where arrows (until the longbow) were minimally effective against nights. In the future, you will be taking alot of casualties charging (see orks) and when you get into combat it will be quick and brutal
2. The reason why it would be quick and brutal is because you don't have many guys fighting, most of the time there will be less than 20 guys total fighting, which would make it a very quick affair.
Also, it is like ancient samurai fights, and with many weapons in the 40k millenium, 1 swipe is all it takes until your dust/ soul sucked out/ gooey mess/ etc.
Remember, 1500-2000 points, not apoc
|
The best thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything it's far too late to stop reading it.
-Courtesy of TheBlueRedPanda
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/13 21:24:34
Subject: Re:[Poll] The Length of a standard Warhammer 40k In Real Life
|
 |
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot
|
About 30 seconds for a 6 turn game. Fights tend to be either long drawn out situations where both sides are more content to stay behind cover/shields and poke at the other occasionally, or one side decides that this ends now...and then it does. Immediately. For them or for the other guy, things happen -fast- after that decision gets made.
With commissars shooting the back hangers, marines rushing forward screaming about sparta and purging things, tyranids rushing forward heedless of the bullets, orks being orks, and eldar confident that arrogance is a shield strong enough to stop lascannons to the face...40K strikes me very much as the latter. We have already had the hours/days/weeks/years of sieging, preparations, sizing the other force up...thats already been dealt with. The "Heck with this. Kill them all or die trying." decision was made about 3 seconds before turn 1 began.
Go watch how people who can actually shoot, shoot. Go watch how people who can actually fight with a sword, fight with a sword. The results, even when you factor in armor/obscured targets/both, are eye opening. These are not genetically enhanced supermen, these are people who A: Both do it for a living -and- take it seriously (And police guys in particular: You know who i'm talking about. You know that guy that only shows up once a year for quals and barely hits the target at 7 meters? Yea. That's the guy who only fits one of the criteria.) or B: Do it as a hobby/test of skill/ZOMBIES!....So the genetically enhanced supermen flinging 20mm explosive projectiles around? Yea. Things are going to end very, very fast.
On top of that, even with as nice and shiny as marine armor and physiology is, even he won't last too much longer than the competition once metal starts being directed at weak points.
30 Seconds. Max.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/13 22:18:55
Subject: Re:[Poll] The Length of a standard Warhammer 40k In Real Life
|
 |
The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
|
an actual 40k game seems like it wouldn't be more then 10-20 minutes in real life.
|
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/13 22:29:42
Subject: [Poll] The Length of a standard Warhammer 40k In Real Life
|
 |
Implacable Black Templar Initiate
|
If either side actually uses battle tactics then it'll be more drawn out (flanking, movement, etc), closer to 30 minutes if they get utterly ambushed and wiped out/fall back, and easily more if they last long enough to address the threat, return fire, and make any sort of move against it.
|
^this. this is how i roll. aaaaaaaw yeaaaah
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/13 22:31:33
Subject: Re:[Poll] The Length of a standard Warhammer 40k In Real Life
|
 |
Impassive Inquisitorial Interrogator
|
mythological wrote:Sorry but medieval battles (talking about those couple hundreds men fights) could take up to 12 hours. I grant you, a lot was maneuvering, but close combat fighting is a long and strenuous thing. We're not talking street fights. We're talking melee fight between trained combatants with real weapons and armor. And in those times, one side would surrender/flee with perhaps only tens of dead. Here we're normally talking about total annihilation... Believe me: it's NOT going to end quickly.
You are right, huge medieval armies clashing in hand to hand combat was very prolonged, but mostly because they were HUGE medieval armies who could afford to lose thousands of soldiers a day (see the seige of anticoch).
Warhammer 40k is different for two reasons:
1. 40k is way more shooting oriented than its medieval counterparts, where arrows (until the longbow) were minimally effective against nights. In the future, you will be taking alot of casualties charging (see orks) and when you get into combat it will be quick and brutal
2. The reason why it would be quick and brutal is because you don't have many guys fighting, most of the time there will be less than 20 guys total fighting, which would make it a very quick affair.
Also, it is like ancient samurai fights, and with many weapons in the 40k millenium, 1 swipe is all it takes until your dust/ soul sucked out/ gooey mess/ etc.
Remember, 1500-2000 points, not apoc
"Huge medieval battles" rarely involved more than a thousand warriors, that's until almost the END of the medieval age. I even explicitly said so.
Shooting should end things faster but in the 40k millenium, for some reason, it seems that close combat is actually more effective than firefights. I think it explicitly says so somewhere in the fluff (though of course there are shooty heavy armies, they usually rely on artillery more than the units' shooting).
Sure, in 40k battles there are less people than in your average medieval battle, but that means that each close combat fight will actually get longer on a per "combatant" basis, since you cannot be swarmed and surrounded and thus you have the ability to go for an all round defense. Don't forget: the people fighting here are not "goons", they're the freaking best in the GALAXY, on either side. One swing will *maybe* be enough to kill one guy, but only if it connects. In a real fight, that won't be much likely, what with the parrying, the armor, the shields and the overall mess.
That said I believe about one hour combat isn't too much. Depending on the enemies facing it may be actually a little short.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/14 00:16:06
Subject: Re:[Poll] The Length of a standard Warhammer 40k In Real Life
|
 |
The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
|
for huge battles you want to look at some Roman Empire circa battles.
those regularly saw hundreds of thousands killed on both sides.
the Medievil period didn't have quite as many people fighting because of the prelevance of the Feudal system which didn't support large professional armies. it was mostly the personal guard of whatever nobleman it happened to be. even 'Big' battles would rarely have more then 10,000 on the field.
Agincourt had approximatly 6-9,000 Englishmen facing 12-36,000 frenchmen
the English had 112 dead. the French had 7-10,000 dead with another 1,500 captured noblemen.
this was a big battle at the time, but pales in comparason to the previous exploits of the Roman Empire.
the Battle of Alesia was many times larger.
Ceaser had around 50,000 men and was up against 180,000-330,000.
casualities were 12,800 romans and 56,000-90,000 barbarians with another 40,000 captured.
|
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/14 04:55:51
Subject: Re:[Poll] The Length of a standard Warhammer 40k In Real Life
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
I would think over an hour, easily, possibly several hours even - it just doesn't make sense otherwise.
Here's an example:
A group of soldier see a ruined out building. They send in 2 guys, who cover each other and slowly check every room for booby trap and possible enemies. They then move to the second floor, make sure this is clear as well, they then relay the information that the building is clear, either by radio or hand signal, depending. The rest of the squad than follow suit, while they will move faster than the two scouts, they will be careful and try to be as quiet as possible. Once at the second floor, everybody tries and find a nook of cover, where they can still have a good firing position. Depending on the size of the building, this whole operation may take several dozen minutes.
In the game, I just described rolling 2 D6 to check for difficult terrain and getting high enough to get to the 2nd level of a ruin.
When squads fire at each other, this represent them unloading their weapon yes, but there's reloading, there's trying to find a different angle. Hoping your squad mates suppress the enemy into making a mistakes, and so forth. Just because a weapon is rapid fire or assault 2, doesn't mean all that's happening is that 2 bullets are shot!
Another good example is Feel No Pain - Yes, in the case of Death Company, Plague Marine and some others, it represent just shrugging off the blow and going 'Rawr! I didn't need that arm anyway!' ... but for IG Medics, SM Apothecary, Ork Painboy, etc... it represent battle field first aid. This mean getting your gear out and ready, applying the necessary aid, and making sure the guy won't just fall down right after it. It also implies getting the injured combatant in cover/out of immediate danger. And this can be done in CC as well - this does implies that even a single round of CC is a long drawn out affair with much more than just 'I hit, you dodge, I hit, you don't, you die!'... but actual retreat and 'redeployment' if you will, happening during a single phase of CC.
Keep in mind also just how sturdy power armors are... how many blows do of a choppa/chainswords/other non-power, non-rending weapon does it take go throught? Several, for sure. And not every blow even connects. Killing a Space Marine in 1 on 1 combat is a long, brutal process of hacking away and chipping at him until you finally break through his ceramite plating, and even then 1 hit won't necessarily kill him. Again, much like with shooting, just because a guy has 1 Wound, doesn't mean he take 1 blows and than he dies.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/14 10:52:53
Subject: Re:[Poll] The Length of a standard Warhammer 40k In Real Life
|
 |
Focused Fire Warrior
5 miles north of Funkytown
|
"Huge medieval battles" rarely involved more than a thousand warriors, that's until almost the END of the medieval age. I even explicitly said so.
Shooting should end things faster but in the 40k millenium, for some reason, it seems that close combat is actually more effective than firefights. I think it explicitly says so somewhere in the fluff (though of course there are shooty heavy armies, they usually rely on artillery more than the units' shooting).
Sure, in 40k battles there are less people than in your average medieval battle, but that means that each close combat fight will actually get longer on a per "combatant" basis, since you cannot be swarmed and surrounded and thus you have the ability to go for an all round defense. Don't forget: the people fighting here are not "goons", they're the freaking best in the GALAXY, on either side. One swing will *maybe* be enough to kill one guy, but only if it connects. In a real fight, that won't be much likely, what with the parrying, the armor, the shields and the overall mess.
That said I believe about one hour combat isn't too much. Depending on the enemies facing it may be actually a little short.
True that most medieval battles didn't involve hundreds of thousands of men, but 40k battles rarely see more than 200 models on the field.
I also didn't state that shootings 'end things faster', what it does is whittle away at the would be combatants so the ensuing fight is smaller, quicker, and more brutal. For example (and I can believe I'm going to a video game for reference) look at some of the Dawn of War 2 trailers/ cinematics where you see fighting, especially in orks vs space marines the fight is over pretty quickly because:
1. a lot of orks went down to shooting
2. Power armor is great but orks are enormously strong and if that space marine even gets slightly knocked down from the blow, he's down for the rest of the baddies to clean up.
3. It is a swirling, fething whirlwind of lethal weapons/ warriors, no matter how many times you parry, you either have to kill your opponent soon or get killed soon
Man on man fighting might take a little longer if the combatants are even matched, like two IC fighting each other, but I don't see squad on squad combat as a regimental affair where you've got to have 1v1, it may start out that way, but those 15 orks within two inches of your squad (not base combat), want to get into that fight two, and they don't care whether its 'not right' to break up the duel
Here's an example:
Your example is slightly irrelevent as how many people in 40ke have the ability to do that or would do that. I know that is how combat goes in the 21st century goes, but a bloodthirsty unit of chaos breserkers or an ork mob will not do said things. And why would they be so cautious if they know where the enemy units are (you don't have to put a blindfold on during your opponents turn), and vise versa for the guys you are sneaking towards.
As I said before, an all shooty army vs another all shooty army might take a bit longer, but still would take a short amount of time in comparison to modern day military as some races small arms can punch through a wall like paper. I'm not saying that the forces don't use any modern day tactics, but how many of us are fighting like people did in the middle ages? times change and so do tactics and thats why we can't assume too much
|
The best thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything it's far too late to stop reading it.
-Courtesy of TheBlueRedPanda
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/14 12:46:37
Subject: [Poll] The Length of a standard Warhammer 40k In Real Life
|
 |
Impassive Inquisitorial Interrogator
|
Sorry but the question is "In real life". Combat has evolved to what is the 21st warfare through evolution. There is no reason to do otherwise: charging recklessly at an enemy may be worth it, in some cases, but it's very rare. When it happens you're basically already upon him and he's got superior firepower so you can get the advantage by removing that firepower and getting into hand to hand combat.
Wh40k warfare, as it is represented in the tabletop or in the videogames, makes no sense whatsoever in the real life perspective. So while I agree that with the 40k logic a normal tabletop mission would take perhaps 10 minutes, in the real life perspective this isn't so.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/15 09:34:23
Subject: Re:[Poll] The Length of a standard Warhammer 40k In Real Life
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
West Midlands (UK)
|
Deployment:
Tac Marines of Squad Alpha in Rhino heading towards objective. "Contact: Enemy sighting! Prepare for combat" over the intercomm. Rhino enters field of action. Location of strategic objective for the line-up of the battle appears on helmet-displays.
Round 1
Rhino skids forward over some low rubble and ruins. Visual contact confirmed and smoke launchers fired. Despite the smoke, incoming fire shakes and rattles the robust Rhino and blow out one of its tracks.
Round 2
Tac Squad Alpha exits immobile Rhino through the dissipating smoke in combat formation. No enemy in field of fire. Squad Alpha dash for the nearest ruin to take higher ground as Landspeeder 1 is hit overhead and crashes into a nearby crop of petrified trees in a ball of fire.
Round 3
Squad Alpha take position in ruins. Enemy now in sight and bolters spring to life as the Marines rapid fire into the oncoming enemy. Despite taking heavy casualties, the crazed enemy units slam into Tac Squad Alpha and a crazy melee ensues.
Round 4
Frenzied fighting in the ruins. Blood, steel, smoke, exploding shells. Though taking heavy casualties themeselves, the Sergants powerfist brings down the leader of the enemy unit who consequently break.
Round 5
Having won the melee, what remains of Tac Squad Alpha heads forward to secure the objective. To cover the open ground, they dash forward forsaking shooting in order to make good speed. Stray fire nontheless kills another battle brother. Though less than half are left, they are Marines and they know no fear.
Round 6
Tac Squad Alpha secures objective and reports back to Captain. Though the position is perilous, they lend supporting fire ahead of Assault Veterans on a forward position conducting a final charge against an enemy embarkement.
Time elapsed? I'd say about 30 seconds on average. One minute max.
|
|
|
 |
 |
|
|