Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey all!

Where does it say that an IC reverts back to an IC when the unit that he has joined has been completely wiped out? There is a rule on p48 BRB that clarifies it for retinues/bodyguards, but all I can find otherwise for leaving a unit is moving out of coherency. If he is the last member of that unit, how could it be possible for him to move out of coherency with himself? And if he doesn't move, will he still be a part of the original unit? Can he claim objectives if he was part of a scoring unit that got wiped out?

I'm looking for official GW material to clarify this, not interpretations. But I can't seem to find anything.

Thanks!

Once his unit/meatshields are all dead, he is indeed a Ic once again as he is no longer in coherency of a unit to be part of.

But the only way to leave a unit is to move out of coherency with it. The IC actually has to move, not merely be out of coherency. So would he still remain in the unit if he does not move? And again, where is this written in any source material?

He has moved, and when you measure to his unit you find it isnt there.

He has thus moved out of coherency. Its written in the rules for IC, page 48, and the rules for coherency.

If the unit is wiped out and he does not move, why would you check for coherency?

There's no longer a unit there for him to be coherent with...?


Moving (or disembarking) out of coherency is the only way for an IC to *voluntarily* leave a unit (that I can think of off the top of my head). He can be forced to involuntarily leave by having that unit wiped out around him or being yanked from combat by units like the DE Hellions.

ShoHennessey wrote:If the unit is wiped out and he does not move, why would you check for coherency?

BEcause you are required to check the IC is still in coherency at the end of the movement phase. Even if he doesnt move.

Well, first of all, the only way for an Independent Character to be removed from a squad isn't moving out of it. That's simply the only way that you can voluntarily do it during your turn.

If at any other time, as Chaos said, all his meat shields are dead, then he reverts back to being an Independent Character immediately.

That rule is there to prevent things odd joinings and leavings. For example, joining an Independent Character during an Assault, or if two squads are next to each other and one of them has an Independent Character in it, and the squad with the IC gets wiped out, you can't simply declare during your opponent's shooting phase, "Okay now he's part of this squad" because he's also within 2" of them.

But that also doesn't mean he has to wait for his own movement phase to not be part of his dead squad anymore.

You always check for coherency. If you blow up 10 of my Orks, and I remove models such that the survivors are not in coherency anymore, as soon as I'm able to I HAVE to move those models into coherency. I don't have the option of simply saying "I'm not moving those models" to skip checking for coherency.

Where does it say that if the unit is wiped out he reverts to being an IC? And does this happen immediately, or at the end of your next movement phase? It does specifically mention that he reverts to IC if his bodyguard/retinue are wiped out, but says nothing about the unit he is with.
During the movement phase, you are required to move your unit back into coherency if it is not currently so. It is also illegal to move your unit such that they are not in unit coherency. Lets say you have a squad of Fire Warriors and a squad leader with a bonding knife. Everyone in the squad dies except the Squad Leader with the bonding knife (and he passes his morale check). He is always in coherency with himself, right? (if i'm not right please let me know)
Let's replace the squad leader with an Independent Character. IF there is no rule saying that he reverts to an IC if the unit he has joined has been wiped out, then he is still technically part of that unit. And when you check for unit coherency, he is still coherent with himself (himself being part of the unit). So then he's not an IC anymore.
This of course seems ridiculous. I really just want to know where you guys are seeing that an IC who joins a unit, and the rest of the unit dies, reverts back to an IC. Like, a page number or a link or anything. Because I believe that should be the case, but I can't find anything to say that it is so.
Thanks for all the responses!

You made one crucial flaw in that: you cannot measure to yourself, you can only measure between models.

So you measure to the nearest member of the squad, check to see if he is in coherency, and cannot as you cannot find a member within 2"

So what happens to the last Firewarrior? Does he have to be removed because he is not in coherency with himself?

No. Sigh

He is not in coherency with anyone - which is fine. He is not "out of" coherency as there is no unit left.

You're making this much harder than it needs to be.

and btw, it does say specifically that an IC only voluntarily leaves a unit if he moves out of coherency with it. So, he is required to move. Plus, I don't see anywhere where it says that he is involuntarily removed if he is not in coherency. If he is part of a squad, he has two options, stay within coherency, or he himself has to move out of coherency.

BTW, ICs cannot get within 2" of a vehicle because they cannot join the vehicle.

Oddly noone plays that rule.

and i do apologize, i don't mean to make things difficult, I just want to make sure I'm playing by the rules (as this has come up in games).
Why would the rules be different for a lone firewarrior and an IC? A lone firewarrior is still considered a 'unit' for scoring purposes. Single model units do not need to check coherency with themselves, you are correct. So why would an IC have to check if he is the last member of a unit that died?

What's going on in this thread?

Who says an IC has to check for coherency if there's not another unit there to check with? What situation in a game has caused this sort of problem?

A lone firewarrior is a unit of one. He doesn't have the IC special rule just because he's now alone.

And hahah, that is a funny discrepancy. Oh GW, you so crazy.

Sho - because the IC is an IC, thats the difference

The IC rules make you check for coherency, being a single model member of a squad that is all but gone doesnt.

An IC cannot leave a unit while locked in close combat. No exception is made for the other models ceasing to exist. So logically, if the IC ended up being the lone survivor of a unit at the end of a round of close combat, he's still part of that "Unit+IC" unit. Wipe out all of his friends, he's still locked in close combat, the results still apply, and fall back or pile in as appropriate.

Shooting phase, movement, random bizarre special rules killing unengaged models in the assault phase, in all of those situations, there aren't any big issues about the rest of the unit disintegrating and the IC becoming a lone model again. (Except for that annoying fallback problem.) The IC can't maintain coherency with no longer in play squad members, so he's pretty much going to be automatically out of coherency and leaving the unit.

Since the coherency rules state that a model must move as quickly as possible to restore coherency, then that means that the solitary IC would be forced to move (even if it's 1 micron) in a futile attempt to regain coherency with the no longer in play models. So you can't even claim that the IC's going to remain stationary to try to remain part of the no longer in play squad. It's gone and he's forced to leave it during his next movement.

If the unit is no longer there...what unit is he forced to leave during his next movement phase?

Since the coherency rules state that a model must move as quickly as possible to restore coherency, then that means that the solitary IC would be forced to move (even if it's 1 micron) in a futile attempt to regain coherency with the no longer in play models. So you can't even claim that the IC's going to remain stationary to try to remain part of the no longer in play squad. It's gone and he's forced to leave it during his next movement.

I don't believe that is true. If the last remaining model of the dead squad was a Fire Warrior Team Leader, he would not have to move any microns to try and get into unit coherency with his now-dead unit. If that were the case, he wouldn't be able to fire heavy weapons in that turn (like a markerlight). If he is the last survivor, I would argue heavily that he would have the option to not move and to fire his heavy weapon.
If this is the case, why couldn't the IC remain stationary? He is still a part of the old unit that he joined, and there is nobody left, so he would not need to move to get into coherency. My trouble with this is, if he was part of a scoring unit on an objective, would he be able to claim that objective?

No. He is no longer a scoring troop, presumably.

Dude... I want to know what store you play @ so I NEVER go there for a game. I mean really, if this is the kind of question that occurs during a game, then holy crap..

This simple fact of the matter is this: An IC is ALWAYS an IC, whether he is attached to a unit or not. Just because he joins unit "A", he does not loose the IC rule - it just means that he is not free to join units "B" or "C", etc., until he either voluntarily leaves unit "A" or until unit "A" is wiped out around him. If the latter happens, he doesn't have to move any distance in any direction @ all - HE is the unit now; he is functioning as a single model unit that does not have to maintain coherency w/ anything. ONLY when he decides to join a squad does the coherency question come in to play. And only for such time that he is part of that unit; i.e. until he voluntarily leaves it or it is again wiped around him.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, but I REALLY don't understand how this even merits conversation...

~Vryce

nosferatu1001 wrote:BTW, ICs cannot get within 2" of a vehicle because they cannot join the vehicle.

Oddly noone plays that rule.

Same could be said for any single model units then.

Kevin949 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:BTW, ICs cannot get within 2" of a vehicle because they cannot join the vehicle.

Oddly noone plays that rule.

Same could be said for any single model units then.

Incorrect. Units, single model or otherwise - but NOT IC's - can come to w/ in 1" of other units/vehicles. IC's cannot do this as they have to declare they are joining a unit & then move to w/ in unit coherency, which is 2".

~Vryce

Vryce wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:BTW, ICs cannot get within 2" of a vehicle because they cannot join the vehicle.

Oddly noone plays that rule.

Same could be said for any single model units then.

Incorrect. Units, single model or otherwise - but NOT IC's - can come to w/ in 1" of other units/vehicles. IC's cannot do this as they have to declare they are joining a unit & then move to w/ in unit coherency, which is 2".

~Vryce

No, what I meant was that Nos said IC's couldn't come within 2" of vehicles and the same could be said for IC's coming within 2" of any single model units. I'm well aware that MC's and other such things don't typically have the IC rule. I can see how the way I worded it was confusing. Sorry.

Dude... I want to know what store you play @ so I NEVER go there for a game. I mean really, if this is the kind of question that occurs during a game, then holy crap..

Haha Actually this came up in a game where my buddy had a scoring unit on an objective. That unit had fortune cast on them. I wiped out his whole unit besides the IC, and we didn't know if
A. Fortune was still on him, and
B. Whether he was still scoring the objective.
We talked for a minute or two and rolled a dice to see what would happen. The table is not the place to argue in-depth about rules. That is by definition what this board is for, so I decided to ask here. When I'm playing, I try as hard as I can to play strictly by the rules (so that it is a fair game) but my primary goal is to have fun.

What I said is true for any always-single-model units out there. An IC cannot move to within 2" of a unit it cannot join.
Noone plays it, as it makes the game very unwieldy.

ShoHennessey wrote:

Dude... I want to know what store you play @ so I NEVER go there for a game. I mean really, if this is the kind of question that occurs during a game, then holy crap..

Haha Actually this came up in a game where my buddy had a scoring unit on an objective. That unit had fortune cast on them. I wiped out his whole unit besides the IC, and we didn't know if
A. Fortune was still on him, and
B. Whether he was still scoring the objective.
We talked for a minute or two and rolled a dice to see what would happen. The table is not the place to argue in-depth about rules. That is by definition what this board is for, so I decided to ask here. When I'm playing, I try as hard as I can to play strictly by the rules (so that it is a fair game) but my primary goal is to have fun.

Well, in answer to your questions -
A) Yes, Fortune was still in effect
B) No, he was not scoring on the objective as, so far as I'm aware, there are no troop choices in the Eldar codex that are also IC's. He was contesting it tho.

~Vryce

Here's what I'm seeing, and we'll use your example: a Shas'o Commander and a Unit of Fire Warriors.

So if you've got just the Fire Warriors, and at the end of turn on their Shas'la is left, you need to check, is every FW within 2 inches of another FW? The answer is yes, he is coherent with his unit.

Now if you've got the Shas'o with the FW, and all the FW are killed, you need to check: is the Shas'o within 2 inches of the FW? The answer is no, they're all gone, so he is now an IC unit again.

I consider this a good thing too, as otherwise you're likely going to have an IC falling back with no chance of Regrouping, which contradicts the RAI/RAW BRB p49 "This is to make them stand out in the fight, as befits such heroic individuals." They aren't standing out very well if they're running away because some meat shields died.