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HQ

Yarrick
Chimera

Primaris Psyker

TROOP

Infantry Platoon

Command: 4x Meltagun
Commissar: 2x Powerfist
Commander: 2x Powerfist
Chimera

Infantry Squad I
meltagun
Sergeant: Power Weapon
Chimera

Infantry Squad II
Meltagun, Lascannon
Commissar: Power Weapon
Sergeant: Power Weapon
Chimera
Heavy Weapon Team: 3x Lascannons

Penal Legion

ELITE

Psyker Battle Squad (10)
Chimera

Ogryn Squad (5)
Chimera: Storm Bolter

1500 exactly!

Can Commissars and squad leaders arm themselves with 2x powerfists or power weapons? my army builder seems to think so and the codex suggests so too.

Is this for tournament play or fun?

I was hoping it might work in some capacity as a tourney list. I know I'm probably lacking objective grabbers but it might be quirky enough to throw the minds of my opponents! ?

For casual play it might be okay. This won't even be a speed bump in a tournament though.

^^^
Hes right. You can always design a mission type around them or draw up some home brew rules to play some really fun games with your gaming buds. We do that all the time with tyranids in my group.

Battle mages sound stunning! Str 10 good range and 1 in 3 chance of awesome ap :-)

Until someone stuns or shakes the vehicle theyre in and they cant use that power anymore.

tournytom wrote:
PCS
Commissar: 2x Powerfist
Commander: 2x Powerfist

wtfamireading.exe

Almarine wrote:

tournytom wrote:
PCS
Commissar: 2x Powerfist
Commander: 2x Powerfist

wtfamireading.exe

A failed leadership test away from losing 50+points apparently. But hey, in a perfect world, that will never happen. But yeah, I had to do a double take on it too. I fail to see the point of wasting 100pts like that when it could be a Vet squad with 3 Meltas in Yarrick's Chimera.

Can Commissars and squad leaders arm themselves with 2x powerfists or power weapons? my army builder seems to think so and the codex suggests so too.

Yes, but for the love of God why?

Put Yarrick with the Ogryns or another squad with a Chimera since it can hold 12. Don't be shocked if your BS 3 Lascannons can't hit. Since your not using a CCS, your also throwing away the Bring it Down! order (PCS can't use it) to at least make them twin linked. Also know that you can't move your Chimera with the Lascannon and shoot. The power weapons in the had of guardsment are Str 3, Init 3. If your gonna use them, use them in a blob squad. If your not doing a blob squad, those 30pts (and the Stormbolter = 40pts) could be best spent elsewhere.

I have this feeling you never played Guard before and that your use to marines. You have good units in there, but I would never play in a tourny with a army I never used before. Play that army in a friendly game or two to test it out and you will see /alot/ of the problems come to the surface.... lasguns, no armor, 3's for your stats, no close combat capability for base guardsmen, ect. Those experinces will show you what works and what doesn't.

IMHO the guard codex has one of the most useful heavy support sections. I suggest having at Least one thing from there( perhaps a russ or Medusa) or spam vendetta gunships.

Thanks again blktom. Will take a few days to absorb everything and post revised list. I played guard in previous edition and had my army published in white dwarf (a long time ago before it was nicked!) Bit you are right, I'm noob with current codex. Something I have learned from throne of skulls though is it was the non prescriptive lists that did best, csm running 3 dreads etc. I did very well with my single lash sorc, zerker, defiler list (although playing missions and objectives was all new to me). I just need to understand what goes with what.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When I say did best, razorspam b'blangels still pwned most things, although it was sisters that took the champion title!

Pretty much overhauled te list. Does this look a bit more playable?

Ccs. Creed, 4x meltaguns, officer of the fleet, chimera.
240

Infantry platoon
Command: commissar + pw, sergeant + pw
Squad I: commissar + pw, sergeant + pw, meltagun, chimera
Squad II: dito
Squad III: dito
Heavy squad: 2x ml, lc
Heavy II: dito
Heavy III: dito
880

Penal legion
80

Leman russ
Leman russ
300

1500

Yes, it is better... I will offer tweaks and give you the mentality/reason behind them to help you consider them.

Well, I don't know why you have a Commissar in your PCS. I would ditch him and the Powersword for 4 Meltaguns. The general thought of adding Commissars to PISs is to blob them together to add in more power weapons. But the only units that can blob are Platoon Infantry Squads, the PCS can't combine with it. Also you can't have blobbed squads in Chimeras as they now count as a single squad and vehicle rules say you can carry only one squad up to X amount (besides special cases like Drop pods).

So, with that explained... I would suggest either blobbing the PISs together (and add some ACs to them and leaving the melta) and dropping the Chimeras or dropping the power weapons and commissars. Chimeras are not assault vehicles, you can not assault the turn you disembark giving your foe a full round of shooting on your unit and assaulting it first. Your best hope is your Chimera get's blown up/wrecked and you survive the explosion... not likely. Either way, your saving a chunk of points.

If you run Creed, you want Kell so your heavy squads use Creed's leadership for Orders and not their own. This is because those are the only units that (and the Penal) can receive orders. Orders can not be given to units in vehicles... so Creed can't even give his own unit a Order if they are in a Chimera. But the Chimera allows you to give orders via the Command Vehicle rule. You will want to stay within 24" of those HWS. Bring it Down! is your friend to make those BS 3 guys hit. You do not want to be rushing forward with this unit. BUT, I would suggest leaving the load out and use it as a rapid response unit to protect your back area from Deep Striking shenanigans. The OotF is debatable in his use. If your short points I suggest ditching him.

I would also suggest that one of your HWSs change to 3 ACs, maybe even 2 squads and one squad 2 Lascannons and a ML. ACs are great Rhino poppers being Str 7 and can then put damage on a hoard. But you do need something for long range AT. Say you win and go first turn 1 or your fighting things that are maneuverable enough to avoid getting close to your meltaguns and that damn 6" range.
This means 2 squads are 75pts and one is 110pts, overall saving you some points for Kell.

If you still want to Chimera rush with meltaguns, if you get enough points gathered up use Vets as they can have 3 special weapons and are BS 4. Having a squad of plasmaguns gives you Str 7 light AT, rapid shot gives you anti-Hoard. I, personally, am a fan of adding a medic to a CS (CCS or PCS) and going 3 plasmaguns to avoid Gets HOT! with Feel No Pain.. But alot of people just go 4 plasmaguns and suck up the wounds for rolling a 1. Medic /is/ 30pts though. Your choice if you go that route.

Chimeras... remember the vehicle rules of move 6" fire one weapon, move 12" fire none. You want to be within 6" for that extra d6 to penetrate high AV for meltaguns. With this in mind, I have to agree with the theory of if your assaulting with Chimeras you want a Multi-Laser and a Heavy Flamer for anti-hoard. If your sitting back with your Chimeras (like in Creed's Chimera), not moving or moving only 6" means you should consider Multi-Laser and a Heavy Bolter for long range support.

Penal squad. I run Penal squads and they disappoint more often than not. You appear to have them because you need a 2nd troop and can't afford anything better. If you do get points, make this a Vet squad with 3 melta in a Chimera. Use this as a goal.

If Creed and Kell are to expensive, just drop them. They /are/ awesome, but are better in foot slogging lists. You could just get a second CCS (x4 Meltaguns and Chimera is 145pts) and accept the fact that your Orders may fail. Unit can only get one Order a turn, so if you fail, you fail. Another tactic is get a CCS, give it two Lascannons and camo-cloaks and put it within 12" of your other HWSs to give BiD. Just remember that both units have to see the target to use BiD. Obviously the CCS doesn't have this issue if it can see the target and give itself orders.

Hope this helps and gives you something to think about.

Here's what I'm thinking about the last posted list.

Officer of the Fleet - Do you have a specific reason for this guy? Like do you face a lot of reserving armies? If not I would consider dropping him, he's a quick 30pts.

PCS - 2x PW is a lot less bad than 4x PF, but this unit will still never accomplish anything. You'll want to give these guys either flamers and a chimera to cruise around and fry stuff, or grenade launchers so they can move and fire a fair distance.

Chimeras on line squads - Love it. And you can still deploy in blob formation and use them for all manner of shenanigans.

Commissars in line squads - First one is great, the other two you can probably afford to drop. You don't really need them until you blob up and even then you only need one.

Creed in a mech list - Three reasons to do this. One is his order range, useful in a mech army where everything often splits up. Another is his furious charge/fearless order, which I guess is major for you by the looks of all your squads. Since BlkTom is (unfortunately) correct about chimeras not being assault vehicles, I can't say I think this is the best idea ever, but I've wanted to try it out myself so whatever. Third and best reason to take creed is his outflank rule, which you can take good advantage of using a leman russ, a line squad or creed himself. If you think these things are worth almost 100pts, go ahead and try it out. In any case, I don't think you should take kell.

Penal legion squad - I've used these guys myself a fair bit. For their points they can accomplish some amazing things for sure, but usually they won't. I've personally found that these squads work better in numbers so you can actually count on getting a few of every random type. I suppose you want them to roll knife fighters so you can give them furious charge with creed and butcher a tactical squad, in which case I'll remind you that A - they don't have grenades so will die instantly if they assault into cover and B - these guys 100% always roll psychopaths period no matter what. It's a cool idea but I have to agree with BlkTom in that a melta vet squad would be nice here. You only have one currently and it will draw a lot of fire and isn't even scoring.

First of all, thanks guys for lengthy and constructive comments, it is very much appreciated that you put so much thought into guiding us noobs to building better lists!

Ok so IP command cannot join a blob? That does indeed make commissar a little redundant. Although they cannot blob, can you not possition a command squad within a blob and just mimic whatever the main blob does to add pw/of attacks and is there any benefit to this?

I was going to use the chimeras as a screen to move troops behind and form fire corridors.

Creed and kell is good for heavy weapons but not tanks? Perhaps better to drop tanks for more heavy weapons teams to capitalize on this or drop creed altogeter. I am not fussed with outflanking as it will split my force and I was probably going to rumble forward in waves, over the top and into the fray!

If at all possibe, would love to squeeze in 165 for psyker squad!

tournytom wrote: Although they cannot blob, can you not possition a command squad within a blob and just mimic whatever the main blob does to add pw/of attacks and is there any benefit to this?

No you can't. You move one unit at a time so you can't hide a unit inside another and move it along with the other. Infact, you can't move through friendly models or through gaps that are smaller than the fig's base. If the units were side by side they could both charge the same unit, but you might not be able to fill in to get all of your attacks off. Remember if they can't get in to base to base or within 2 inches they do not count towards the fight. So you really want your melee guys up front of the blob, though if you get hit from behind you will be screwed, and only half of your guys will get in if hit from the flank. Bases are 1" wide, so that is only 2 ranks deep.

Creed and kell is good for heavy weapons but not tanks? Perhaps better to drop tanks for more heavy weapons teams to capitalize on this or drop creed altogeter. I am not fussed with outflanking as it will split my force and I was probably going to rumble forward in waves, over the top and into the fray!

Orders do not effect vehicles or troops inside vehicles. I would not drop the tanks though. They draw fire and do damage.

Creed can only issue 3 Orders a turn, so having 2-3 units of Heavy Weapon Squads is plenty. The PCS can only issue 1 order a turn, so you could have Creed ordering the Blob every turn (Move!, FRFSRF, ect) and send two orders to the heavy weapons squads (BiD) and the PCS can order itself (Move!). You can have Creed order both the Blob and PCS For Cadia! when they charge. if you still want to focus on an assault army. I would also suggest a Ministorum Priest for the Blob if you still wish to focus on assaulting with it. Read up on him.

Though it is kinda getting to the point where you will want to put up a updated list. I think people can help you fine tune your list now that you may have a better grasp on things and how you want to play.

HQ

CCS: Creed, Kell, 3x Meltaguns
255

TROOP

IP I
PC: 4x Meltagun
SquadI: Commissar + PW, Meltagun, PW for Sergeant
Squad II: Dito
Squad III: Dito
Heavy I: 2x LC, AC
Heavy II: Dito
Heavy III: Dito
615

IP II
PC: 4x Meltagun
Squad I: nada
Squad II: nada
Heavy I: 3x AC
Heavy II: 2x AC, LC
330

HEAVY

Leman Russ
Leman Russ
300

TOTAL - 1500

hows that for footslog?

I think it looks pretty good. I will offer a few suggestions...

Are you sure you want to mix your heavy weapon squads? I assume you want to make sure each squad has some AT as well as anti-infantry. Play it and see if it works for you, but you might want to look at squads that do one job.

I don't like naked squads, even if their goal is to sit back and protect your heavy weapon squads. Even a single melta gun or a plasma gun would give them a chance to kill a deep striking Dread or take out a terminator or two before you get charged.

To pay for it, you could drop one Commissar (and his powersword) to get two plasma guns for those two units and consider with that last 5 points of upgrading a Russ to a Vanquishier.

Another option is getting a Priest to give your blob squad an ability to deal with a walker and the ability to hurt anything with Toughness 7+ like Wraithlords (T 8). It also makes your blob better in close combat.

Play your list and see how it works, tweak it from there!

Good luck!

I will probably go for the priest option, a straight swap for pw commissar. Does the priest give re-rolls to all 30 troops in the blob or just a singer unit within the blob?

I think regular leman russ works better for me than vanquisher as I can lob battle cannon shots indirect from behind cover which I can't to with vanquisher.

I could cut 1 heavy squad and pimp the infantry units with the points gained? Do I have to take 2 infantry units as part of the platoon or can I I get 1 platoon consisting purely of 3 heavy units?

Would 2x psyker squads, 1x penal squad plus 30 points spares be good trade for 2nd ip?

1. He gives re-rolls to the entire blob, but only when it assaults.

2. You are probably right, vanquishers suck.

2.5. A russ can't fire indirectly.

3. You need two infantry squads in each platoon.

4. Don't take a priest to deal with t7+, that is just slowed.

Renegades and Heretics Army List Update - An army list for renegades.

Almarine wrote:
4. Don't take a priest to deal with t7+, that is just slowed.

And if he gets assualted by a dreadnaught, wraithlord, MC, ect, he loses his blob squad because no one can pen AV 10+ or hurt anything past toughness 7 with those Str 3 powerswords. Meltabombs and kraks only hit Walkers on a 6 and you get only 1 attack, even if you can attack more than once. He could spend 10pts per platoon and get krak, but at str 6, Kraks suck.

So what do you suggest he does that is less 'slowed'... hope he doesn't get assaulted? Least the Priest is a Str 6 with 2d6 armor penetration. It solves two problems and gives him an added benefit if he charges. He loses attacking at Init 3... that is it, otherwise he loses /nothing/. 45pts for a PW Commissar or 45pts for a Priest. If it was his only Commissar, yeah, he would lose Stubborn, but he has 2 more in there.

Just sayin', he wounds a wraithlord on 6. He has 2-3 chances.

The right thing to do, that isn't slowed, is to kill the t7+ with lascannons, plasma or meltas.

With walkers sure, it might help, but I never said otherwise.

What is the general opinion on sniper rifles?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HQ

CCS: Creed, Kell, 3x Sniper Rifles
240

Ministorum Priest: Eviscarator
60

TROOP

IP
PC: 4x Meltagun
SquadI: Commissar + PW, Meltagun, PW for Sergeant
Squad II: Dito
Squad III: Dito
Heavy I: 3x LC
Heavy II: Dito
Heavy III: 3x Autocannon
Heavy IV: Dito
615

Veteran Squad
3x Plasmaguns

HEAVY

Leman Russ
Leman Russ
300

TOTAL - 1500

Almarine wrote:Just sayin', he wounds a wraithlord on 6. He has 2-3 chances.

The right thing to do, that isn't slowed, is to kill the t7+ with lascannons, plasma or meltas.

With walkers sure, it might help, but I never said otherwise.

Wraithlord is Toughness 8, he can't even wound it at Str 3.
Know thy enemy.

What is the general opinion on sniper rifles?

I personally don't like them as I have not had alot of success with them. You will probably hit with the BS4, you will probably wound as well. But the target gets an armor save and things like FNP. If you do get a wound through, they make a moral save. If the unit is Fearless it doesn't care. Marines have a hard time to fail this as well.

Try it out, maybe you will like them. Maybe you face Eldar, Tau, or IG alot. Maybe for you they are fine.

tournytom wrote:CCS: Creed, Kell, 3x Sniper Rifles
240

This unit is overcosted and it's role isn't clear. I assume they hang back and give orders to the HWS squads?
Still you are spending more then 10 % of your points on a 5 man squad that is T3...
I would drop Creed & Kell and probably the Sniper Rifles.

Ministorum Priest: Eviscarator
60

This one goes with the blob squad I assume? He is good in there and useful for antitank hunting. Keep him.

PC: 4x Meltagun

Perhaps a voxcaster in this group? Could be usefull but not necessay.

SquadI: Commissar + PW, Meltagun, PW for Sergeant
Squad II: Dito
Squad III: Dito
Heavy I: 3x LC
Heavy II: Dito
Heavy III: 3x Autocannon
Heavy IV: Dito
615

Now this part needs some clearing up, I don't really know what is how many points and what everything has.
Something like this?

Squad: 115
Commissar + PW, Meltagun, PW for Sergeant

Squad: 115
Commissar + PW, Meltagun, PW for Sergeant

Squad: 115
Commissar + PW, Meltagun, PW for Sergeant

Heavy: 75
3x Autocannon

Heavy: 75
3x Autocannon

Heavy: 120
3x LC

Heavy: 120
3x LC

The infantry squads: Is there a reason why there are 3 commissars? You still only get 1 reroll and you spend too many points on them. So if you remove two you save a lot of points. a vox can be useful, if you try to give them orders.

Now, the HWS squads aren't advisable. Drop them and try to fit another blob squad in them.

Veteran Squad
3x Plasmaguns

Hmm... One squad isn't going to save you or make your day. Try getting more of them or drop them.

Leman Russ
Leman Russ
300

Looks good, still they are your only tanks on the table and will draw a lot of fire towards them. If you take some tanks, try taking 4 or 5 tanks, so not all of them will be destroyed in 1 turn. How about taking a hydra squadron instead? Assuming you drop them and the AC squads, you get 6 hydra's.

All 'n' all: With all respect, but what do you expect from this list?
It's messed up and unfunctional... I think you made a couple of beginnermistakes.
Try clearing the roles for certain units, this can help you a lot.

Creed and Kell in 1500 points can work but then you need to spam infantry, right now you only have one blob squad, 2 tanks and some other stuff...

Your thoughts are correct Loner. I had planned to have my CCS bark orders from the back line while still picking off mobs with the snipers. I thought this sounded like a sound plan to me, but then again I have been playing Chaos up till now.

Glad you like the Priest!

3 Commissars I thought = lots more power weapon attacks for the blob. Is this fubar? I wanted to get the extra heavy weapons team in the IP to benefit from BiD orders. I had been lead to believe this was a good thing to have Creed n' Kell to take charge for this reason.

The Vets were for rear guard assault protection, hence plasma guns as I dont really care if they die...As long as the dread or termis die also!

If I could have afforded another IP I would have gone for it but it left me with 2x unpimped infantry units and 2 heavys (see previous list)

I didnt seem to have many points left for tanks. I am not going for a mech line but wanted a bit of good ol' fashioned barrage raining the smackdown. Are there any options for vehicles that possess ordinance/barrage?

tournytom wrote:Your thoughts are correct Loner. I had planned to have my CCS bark orders from the back line while still picking off mobs with the snipers. I thought this sounded like a sound plan to me, but then again I have been playing Chaos up till now.

3 sniperrifles ain't gonna make your day. You get 3 shots of which 2 will probably hit, 1 will wound and thus leaving the opponent probably with a save.
If you add snipers, then take a look at the ratlings or SWS with snipers. (Although I prefer Ratlings in groups of 6.)
Otherwise, you need to waste an order on the snipers instead of the HWS.

Still I would try to swap Creed & Kell for something else. They cost 175 points... You can do a lot of fun with those points.

Glad you like the Priest!

The priest is good against tanks as well as the re-roll ability.

3 Commissars I thought = lots more power weapon attacks for the blob. Is this fubar? I wanted to get the extra heavy weapons team in the IP to benefit from BiD orders. I had been lead to believe this was a good thing to have Creed n' Kell to take charge for this reason.

Ehmm...3 commissars in one squad is slightly overkill... You are spending 90 points on 6 PW attacks. For those points you can also get another squad with PW, meltabombs and a meltagun and still have 15 points left.
Then again if you insist on it, then you can do that.

The Vets were for rear guard assault protection, hence plasma guns as I dont really care if they die...As long as the dread or termis die also!

Don't expect miracles from them and remember to stick them to cover. If you want some backfield harassment, you can also take Penal Legionarres. (They have scout ability and thus can outflank.)

If I could have afforded another IP I would have gone for it but it left me with 2x unpimped infantry units and 2 heavys (see previous list)

You don't need the two heavy squads, they are optional. If you dropped the commissars (see above) then you have one squad ready. THe other squad you can edit with the remaining points. (the 15 spare points and the 100 from the two squads --> 115 = Infantry squad with commissar, 2 PW, meltagun.

I didnt seem to have many points left for tanks. I am not going for a mech line but wanted a bit of good ol' fashioned barrage raining the smackdown. Are there any options for vehicles that possess ordinance/barrage?

I could say take a look at the griffon or spam mortars. The griffon isn't great, but he is just 75 points. For 300 points you can get 4 Griffons. Or take mortar squads. They don't require LOS and you can field 6 squads of them. As a bonus they can pin the enemy.

Creed+kell is a good thing to have supporting your HWS teams, but at 1500 you're spending like 30% of your points on some good LC/AC hits.

Regarding sniper rifles, they're not a stellar choice. If you want to go cheap on your ccs, grenade launchers are probably going to be better. With a krak grenade it will beat a sniper against most infantry unless you're looking to rend or pin. If you are, I suggest getting ratlings instead, perhaps with a PBS. For a stationary CCS, many take a lascannon over 3 SR/GL.

The problem with taking just one plasma vet squad is that your opponent can eliminate your ability to kill (for instance) terminators through destroying a single chimera unit. When you have two squads, this is much harder to do, but it doesn't really make one squad a bad buy.

I think you could shave some points by dropping the commissars down to one per blob, unless you tend to face things that can snipe him like telion, farseers with mind war and vindicare assassins.

BlkTom wrote:Wraithlord is Toughness 8, he can't even wound it at Str 3.
Know thy enemy.

A priest with eviscerator has two attacks, one of which will hit a wraithlord. He then needs a 6 to wound. If the blob assaulted (which seems unlikely since it's so stupid, unless you want to tie it up to protect a vehicle or something I guess), the priest instead gets 2.25 hits but is in b2b with the wraithlord who has no reason not to attack him at higher initiative.

I'm not saying priests are bad in blobs. If you're taking one to get the assault reroll or to deal with vehicles then that's all well and good but if the primary motive is to be able to deal with t7+, I would call it a bad choice.

Almarine wrote:

I'm not saying priests are bad in blobs. If you're taking one to get the assault reroll or to deal with vehicles then that's all well and good but if the primary motive is to be able to deal with t7+, I would call it a bad choice.

I actually agree. If you want to deal with T 7+, you want to shoot it to death. But if your going to use Priests, get the Chainfist.