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Hello,

I am trying to make a "competitive" space marine army list. By, "competitive", I dont meen a win at all costs army. I meen an army that has a good shot at wining wile still not being cheese. Here's the list I have so far. It is 1500, and it will be my base list, meening that I will modify it up or down depending on the sercomstaces. Please don't hold anyting back.

HQ:
Librarian w/ Terminator armour, storm shield, powers are null zone and vortex of doom 140

Elites:
5 man terminator squad w/ chainfist 205

Troops:
10 man tactical squad w/ missiile launcher and flamer 170 rhino 35
10 man tactical squad w/ plasma cannon and plasma gun 185 rhino 35

Fast attack:
10 man assault squad w/ 2 plasma pistols, sargent has power fist 145
10 man assault squad w/ 2 plasma pistols, sargent has power fist 145

Heavy support:
Preaditor w/ lascannon sponsons 120
Preaditor w/ lascannon sponsons 120

I would recommend Rhinos for the tac squads and a teleport homer for the tac squads as well (assuming that you will teleport the terminators). I approve of the Predators (two of them with las will rock vs. elite units). You are missing anti horde (1500 points of basic tyrinid or orks is a lot of units). I suppose if you make a fire base and have your tanks as a unit funnel you would stand a fighting chance. but try to find points for two no upgrade rhinos.

Sorry, tacs do have rhinos. I just forgot to put it in the list. As for anti hord, what would you recomend?

Copy pasting from another post I wrote:

HQ:
Librarian; Null Zone and The Avenger - 100 Points

Troops:

Tac Squad, ML and Flamer; Rhino - 205 Points
Tac Squad, ML and Flamer; Rhino - 205 Points
Tac Squad, ML and Flamer; Rhino - 205 Points

Elites:
Dreadnought with 2x TL Autocannons - 125 points
5 Sternguard with Rhino, 3 with Combi Meltas, 2 with Combi Flamers - 185 points


Fast Attack:
Land Speeder with Multi-Melta and Heavy Flamer - 70 points
Land Speeder with Multi-Melta and Heavy Flamer - 70 points
Land Speeder with Multi-Melta and Heavy Flamer - 70 points


Heavy Support:
Predator with AC, HB sponsons - 85 points
Predator with AC, HB sponsons - 85 points
Predator with AC, HB sponsons - 85 points

1490 points

Things you should NOT do:

- Put Sternguard in a Drop Pod unless you like throwing away 185 points.

- Give Sternguard a Razorback. Having firing points is absolutely invaluable. If you want the Sternguard to shoot, you'd have to disembark them, and you will be in 'the zone'. 'The Zone' is in assault range, which also coincides with Rapid Fire range. As Vanilla Marines, you want to be OUT of the zone as much as possible, unless you are TH/SS Termies.

- Give Predators Las sponsons. For 12.5 points each, you get Heavy bolter sponsons, which is an absolute huge bargain. I know I will catch flak for saying this, but it is absolute dead wrong to make Preds transport hunters. Why? Rifleman Dreads do it better, albeit they cost 5 points more, but they dish out 4 S7 TL shots and are a mobile platform for Autocannons.

- Give Tac squads Power Fists. Read Combat Tactics. Then read it again. And again. In fact, don't give the Sarge anything beyond BP/CCW or Bolter (excluding combi-weapons that match the special weapon).
------------------------------------

Now on your list:

- Drop Assault Marines. C:SM is a shooty army, your only assault units are TH/SS Termies, which are the golden standard of assault units in the first place. This frees up 290 points.

- Drop the Tac Termies. Tac Termies are only good if you footslog them with CMLs, but they still cost a ton of points.

- Drop the plasma weapons from the Tac Squads. You need redundancy more than specialized units, as the power of each unit that is being repeated goes up exponentially as there is more of the same unit on the field (And yes, I am very aware that my list is quite the opposite in the Elites section... I haven't optimized the list completely). In addition, a ML is free (and so is a MM, but range is a huge issue with it) and is more versatile than a PC. Plasmaguns also suffer from range due to movement, with Rapid Fire range having you in 'the zone'.

- Reduce the Librarian down to no upgrades. Null Zone is always taken, as you've written, with your second power being personal preference. In the list I showed you, you can replace The Avenger with Gate of Infinity if the Librarian is with the Sternguard, meaning that you'll be able to Gate out of the Rhino to anywhere within 24" using deep strike rules (GoI doesn't require LOS). You can also use the power to get out of CC (The models are removed from the table first), relocate, and keep shooting. I personally take The Avenger as a S5 AP3 template is quite powerful.

- Take a 3rd Tac Squad. You really really need more bodies and more Rhino chassis. On paper, the power of having 11 pieces of armor (looking at the list I showed you) isn't really felt until you field all of it.

- Your list has a severe lack of melta. The best platform for melta weapons are Land Speeders with MM/HF. Land Speeders are one of the best units in the book. With the MM/HF loadout, Speeders are usually suicide units, but you can send them out on turn 1 going flat out, sitting right in front of your opponent's armor with a 4+ cover save, denying them movement. Next turn, you take out said armor you sat infront of, and if they're still alive, anything else they kill is just a bonus.

Thanks for the advice. I think that it makes sence. I won't make any changes untill I've thougt about it a bit more. The thing about the librarian thoug, without an invon save, won't he kill himself? And about the speeders. I've heard that MM/HF is not that efective because it doesn't know what its doing. They (the people who say the MM/HF is not efective) say you should take MM OR HF. Is this true? Thanks.

MM/HF Speeders are mainly fast moving melta platforms. The HF is there in case if there's no more vehicles to kill, so the speeder won't be useless. Speeders can also take both, the MM replaces the stock HB and the HF is added on, look at the codex entry.


Regarding Vortex: It's not a good idea to have the power at all because it's a Heavy PSA and he's in PA. I could see it being used if he was in a TH/SS Termie squad with GoI (So his powers would be GoI and Vortex), but then you lose the oh so powerful Null Zone.

I tested the list I had and it lost, badly. Just for kicks, my friend and I tried out a Vulkan list. It worked realy well. Here's the list I used.
HQ:
Vulkan 190
Eilites:
Dreadnought w/ heavy flamer 115
Dreadnought w/ heavy flamer 115
6 man TH/SS Termy squad 240
Troops:
10 man Tac squad w/ flamer, multi-melta, rhino 205
10 man Tac squad w/ flamer, multi-melta, rhino 205
Fast attack:
Attack Bike w/ multi-melta 50
Attack Bike w/ multi-melta 50
Attack Bike w/ multi-melta 50
Heavy support:
Land Raider Crusader w/ multi-melta, extra armour 275

I know it Is complietly different from the other list but bare with me. I'm still relitivly new to the game.

Please do provide details on why the list didn't work; I too am not a grizzled veteran yet for C:SM list building.


But yes, your new lists certainly looks much more powerful.

AresX8 wrote:Please do provide details on why the list didn't work; I too am not a grizzled veteran yet for C:SM list building.


But yes, your new lists certainly looks much more powerful.

Well, the first list died for many of the same reasons you said it would. The preditors didn't know what they were doing, the librarian and his boys got shot to bits (even after they deep striked), and the assault squads didn't get to do anything other than get shot up. I made some changes with the list you made but the MM/HF guys didn't know what they were doing and his anti tank took out my tanks befor I could do anything with them.