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Saw a game this evening, where a GK player got bent over by a Demons player. I thought it was strange.

He had 2 BT's, 6 flamers, and 2 SG's along with a bunch of Horrors and Bloodletters Infantry.

When he was fighting in CC with the BT's he was taking 2+ saves against their force weapons for Collar of Khorne. Was pretty brutal, the Bloodletters and Horrors seemed to do ok, the horrors did the least good. The Soul Grinders were F'ing stuff up dropping S8 AP3 templates on everything. It was crazy didn't expect to see it go down like that.

Edit the flamers were wiping entire squads at a time with No save flamers.

Well yeh, it's not like any army would be an auto win over the other or anything. If played right Daemons just laugh at the Grey Knights.

Against khornate daemon armies you really, REALLY need to bring dark excommunication.

Is this a rant because you think the GK codex is NOT overpowered? I'm glad that it apparently isn't Gratz to the Deamon player!

I don't see it as a rant, so much as an observation.

People seem to fall into the trap of thinking 40k is paper, rock, scissors. It is not. Thinking that Grey Knights will automatically trounce demons, just because they are geared towards defeating them, implies that 40k doesn't at all involve elements of player skill, deployment strategies, list composition, turn-by-turn tactical flexibility, a focused game plan with alternate plans or, you know, luck.

Strange, that, a game that involves rolling buckets of dice, presuming luck plays no significant part in the outcome.

Ouze wrote:I don't see it as a rant, so much as an observation.

People seem to fall into the trap of thinking 40k is paper, rock, scissors. It is not. Thinking that Grey Knights will automatically trounce demons, just because they are geared towards defeating them, implies that 40k doesn't at all involve elements of player skill, deployment strategies, list composition, turn-by-turn tactical flexibility, a focused game plan with alternate plans or, you know, luck.

Strange, that, a game that involves rolling buckets of dice, presuming luck plays no significant part in the outcome.

*hugs*

Ahem... 'What he said'.


It's also worth noting that Grey Knights are no tougher than other MeQ's and that Khornate armies possessing Bloodletters and the like possess lots of power weapons. Ergo...

Is this the bat rep were the demon player was using blight drones? Perhaps it would've turned out differently without those. The demon player listed the blight drones as his MVP for the game.

not a rant was just suprised at the through whooping the demon player put on the GK. What has dark excom? As far as I could tell the only thing that happened special was once when the BT failed its save it had to take a LD test. Other than that I didn't see much of anti-demon effects going on. What did the GK player do wrong? I guess most the demons had to DS away from his forces due to some deepstrike problem. But it seemed to hinder the GK player a bit at least with the soul grinders as they were dropping templates all game long fairly unmolested. I didn't see any nurgle or slanesh on the table. I don't know what a blight drone is.

Just because a guy has a shiny new GK army does not mean he knows what he's doing. This game actually involves startagy and tactics. knowing how each of your units work together and who to send them up to fight.

Dark Excommunication is mandatory for facing Khornate deamons.

no 2++ save for you


Deamons are also best delt with by shooting. those 5++ saves don't last against bolter fire.

the only deamons you would want to engage in CC are plague bearers as you will bypass their FnP.

Heh I've played GKs afew times and havn't been beaten, won three times and drew once (due to my plague bearers scattering slightly after the damn vindicare sniped the icon from another squad)

should he have been rolling the 2+ save twice? Or just once?

He wouldn't have been rolling his 2+ save at all.


Dark Excommunication makes all deamonic gifts stop working.

BotBG is a deamonic gift that gives a 2+ invuln against Force Weapons.

Deamons won a game. News at 11.

So this was a local sunday tourney, the GK player cant change his list between games so should he buy DE and just have it all the time and made a mistake. If he doesn't have DE is there anything that would force the demon player to reroll his saves?

GKs don't have Null Zone so they don't have anything like that.


DE is specific to Deamons.

its only 5 points so I would take it if there was the possability of Khornate Deamons.

tgf wrote:So this was a local sunday tourney, the GK player cant change his list between games so should he buy DE and just have it all the time and made a mistake. If he doesn't have DE is there anything that would force the demon player to reroll his saves?

Considering that it's only 5 points, and how thoroughly it shuts down daemons' special powers, if you think you're fighting daemons then it's a total no brainer to take. Otherwise, GK are just another flavor of MEQ, and a lot of the tactics and loadouts that are effective against other marines will work just as well on them.

Yeah Null zone is what I was thinking of, so other than the Librarian who can take DE?

Aside from Warp Quake spam*, GKs really are not that tough against Daemons. DE sucks, but not many things have it. Psyk-out grenades are annoying, but Daemons can still knock around GKs in CC despite striking last. The Pscilencer is only annoying against Daemon MCs; "Thanks for not bringing more Psycannons." Daemonbane is a longshot, but Daemons have Ld10(except Fateweaver).

*Multiple strike squads and interceptor squads and cover the enitire board with Warp Quake turn one. "Congrats, douche. Chalk up your glorious win while I go find someone to actually play the game with."

Oddly Daemons are one of the armies that can crush GKs.

Dark Excommunication is good but can only be taken by 2 (I believe) units, the dreadknight and librarians.

A Khorne army with a few tzeentch units will destroy them. Tzeentch daemons can shoot units with DE from outside of their bubble. Once they are gone khorne PW will eat the rest of the GK.

BuFFo wrote:Deamons won a game. News at 11.

4M2A wrote:Oddly Daemons are one of the armies that can crush GKs.

Dark Excommunication is good but can only be taken by 2 (I believe) units, the dreadknight and librarians.

A Khorne army with a few tzeentch units will destroy them. Tzeentch daemons can shoot units with DE from outside of their bubble. Once they are gone khorne PW will eat the rest of the GK.

remember that those Khorne power weapons are on T4 5++ save bodies and if GKs have one thing its loads of firepower.

8 stormbolter armed guys and 2 psycannons will, on average, kill 9 Bloodletters a turn if the psycannons remain stationary. 7 if they move.

if the Gk player rolls above average or the Deamon player rolls horribly for his saves then that squad is pretty much toast.

Yeah but that is the case with any army. Khorne daemons remove GK armour and that makes them die just like everyone else.

It's suprising how many Blood letters you can get in a 2000 point game. As long as you don't spend loads on GDs you will hugely outnumber the GK. Each GK is good but there aren't many of them.

No, its not that way with every army.

other armies either have ALOT more bodies or have a better save.


Deamons pay ALOT for that 5+ invuln, but it doesn't do much for them.


lets not even talk about Cleansing Flame.

Well, I played with my CSM army against a GK friend (around 1800 points) and even though we couldn't finish the game I nearly won, because we had a really, really bad luckwith the dices. Lord Draigo died when trying to protect his mates with his storm-shield and by a flamthrower because he only ran 1s on the dices...

The important thing to remember about Dark Excom is that it only works against 1 thing in combat. So so long as you have 2 units engadged your ok.

I played my daemons against GK for the first time on sunday and won. Fateweaver and a lord of change took out several units and the flamers were extremely useful.

Turning the librarian into a spawn was a big help.

When are flamers not useful? Talk about a unit born to be awesome. I think DE would remove their power weapons from Bloodletters as well because the sword is listed as a gift.

If the power weapons are deamonic gifts then DE would indeed remove them.


also be aware that the libby could cast DE multiple times if he was in BtB with multiple units, up to the limit of Powers he is allowed to cast a turn.

so if he is in BtB with 2 squads of Bloodletters then he just needs to fire off DE twice and both are screwed.

funny that GK are better against other armies than daemons.

No army is susposed to auto win vs another.