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I've been thinking about this "problem" for a while now, and it still leaves me stumped theory-crafting wise.

Practically I've not really come across a big problem, but I'd still like some closure.

My question is regarding the Wave Serpent, and it's ability to transport melee units into close combat. Think: Striking Scorpions, Banshees, Seer Council.

My biggest gripe is the fact that the Wave Serpent has only one exit point, the back, and *cannot* pivot before unloading, lest it count as a move. This means that if I want to unload and assault with the melee unit inside the wave serpent, I usually have to pick one of two undesireables.

1.) End the previous turn with the back facing as close as possible to the enemy squad I would like to assault. This also usually means exposing the back-end of the Wave Serpent to incoming fire.

2.) drive the wave serpent into melee range of the opposing squad, and even then, the opponent is still able to "retreat" 6" and avoid assault altogether due to the length of the Wave Serpent.

Both are terrible, and if possible, something I would very much prefer to avoid. Are there any tactics tips one could show me to avoid these situations with my Wave Serpents? Thanks.

The situation can even get worse if the enemy manages it to move a unit close to the Serpent's back door so that the mounted squad cannot disembark without first moving the Serpent.

this is why alot of eldar armies are shooting based now, melee units have trouble getting into combat.

Best bet is to turbo 24' and get a cover save, then get out move 6 and hope to get a good fleet role.

Well, you need to plan two turns ahead.
Banshees and Seers have FoF and so are eventually faster than the retreating enemy.
Moreover, a fortuned unit can eventually survive one round not being in combat.
I'd let a fortuned Council disembark as soon as possible, preferably at midfield.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, you need to plan two turns ahead.
Banshees and Seers have FoF and so are eventually faster than the retreating enemy.
Moreover, a fortuned unit can eventually survive one round not being in combat.
I'd let a fortuned Council disembark as soon as possible, preferably at midfield.

You are assuming the council doesn't have eldrad, one of the biggest Eldar assets currently. Eldrad does *not* have FoF, unfortunately. Additionally, even if you *do* plan 2 turns ahead, you either need to land 13" away from the opponent, in which case he can just walk back another 6" or get charged first.

Well, Eldrad is more a liability when it comes to moving the Council.
So the enemy retreats so that the Council is not able to charge after disembarking. So what?
I'd be glad when the enemy targets the fortuned Council with everything he has and not the rest of my army.

which is fine if it's a fortuned council... but this is not all we are talking about >.> Scorpions, and Banshees *will* go down to sustained fire.

Well, what armies out there would you charge with Scorpions or Banshees.
I'd consider it the other way around and take these units for counter-strike.
CC armies will come to you anyway and then disembarking should be uncritical.

thats just circumventing the question at hand. It's like answering the question of "How do I swim" with "why would you ever want to swim? Swimming should be uncritical."

Kouzuki wrote:thats just circumventing the question at hand. It's like answering the question of "How do I swim" with "why would you ever want to swim? Swimming should be uncritical."

In fact, Scorpions and Banshees are mediocre assault units. I'd stay away from them.

wuestenfux wrote:

Kouzuki wrote:thats just circumventing the question at hand. It's like answering the question of "How do I swim" with "why would you ever want to swim? Swimming should be uncritical."

In fact, Scorpions and Banshees are mediocre assault units. I'd stay away from them.

>__>. Infact the butterfly and breast stroke are mediocre ways of transport. I'd stay away from them. Learn to bike instead. what...

Well, you've answered the question already in your first post.
So what...

How bout spending minimal points on the wave serpent so if it gets wrecked it doesn’t matter much. Then you can charge in and eat the baddies for dinner. I don’t play elder so ignore if you want. Just my 2 cents.

Ledabot wrote:How bout spending minimal points on the wave serpent so if it gets wrecked it doesn’t matter much. Then you can charge in and eat the baddies for dinner. I don’t play elder so ignore if you want. Just my 2 cents.

This works I guess, except if the vehicle gets wrecked the unit inside can still only climb out from the back, which will then have to walk around the wave serpent to get to the front and assault the unit in the front. This means the WS will have to be in close/melee range in the first place. If the vehicle gets exploded, the unit inside will have to deal with difficult/dangerous terrain and still probably only move the same distance.

Kouzuki wrote:
2.) drive the wave serpent into melee range of the opposing squad, and even then, the opponent is still able to "retreat" 6" and avoid assault altogether due to the length of the Wave Serpent.

If you actually take out your models and set them up on a table, you'll see how this doesn't happen.

The trick is to use star engines to fly 3-4 serpents together, side-by-side, and stop with the bow of the serpents 1" away from what you want to assault. DoW is the only deployment in which star engines can't get you within 1" of something across the table. Angle the serpents slightly off to one side to bring the back hatch closer to your target, while still keeping your rear armor in back.

Your opponent really can't get away at this point. Do the measurements and you'll see that if the serpent is rotated slightly at the end of it's move, the infantry standing 1" away is less than 7" or 8" from the hatch. So even if they move 6" straight back, they're still in assault range of a fleeting assault unit (2" disembark + 6" move + 6" assault). They can run and have a 50/50 chance of getting away, but then they're not shooting.

Also they can't move to block the hatches because enemy infantry can't move between your side-by-side serpents to get to the rear--the rule that doesn't allow them to move within 1" of an enemy vehicle. If your opponent has speeders or jump troops, bring along some vypers or bikes to park 2" behind your own hatches, keeping them clear of enemy blockers.

Then you sweat for a turn while your opponent shoots at your serpents, but unless something unexpected happens you typically only lose one or maybe two (and the rest are shaken, so there's no point in putting expensive guns on them). Your opponent might assault the serpents, needing 6's to hit, but then they're even easier to assault.

Then in your turn, you cast doom, disembark & move-fleet-assault. If your opponent did manage to run away, you move your serpents up to within 1" of where he is now and wait again--he'll run out of table sooner or later.

In 5th edition the major problem is not with pulling off the assault. The problem with this type of army is in the Eldar codex. With the rise of mechanized armies, you need something that can open the enemy transports so that you can assault the passengers, so that means fire dragons. But Dragons compete for elite slots with your assault troops. Also, even if you take no dragons at all, you're limited to the three assault units that you can put into your elite slots (storm guardians can't actually effectively assault anything) plus possibly a fourth if you take a foot council. An effective assault army really needs 5-6 dedicated assault units in wave serpents at anything 1500 points or better. Three or four assault units is enough to pull off one major assault on one isolated part of the opponent's army; a broad-based assault that cripples your opponent isn't usually possible

Also a smart opponent will counter the assault not by moving away, but rather by screening his valuable troops with cannon fodder and forcing you to assault that.

So it can work and it's fun, and devastating when you pull it off. The tactics work (although they are chancier than I like for competitive play). It's the army-building where the idea of assault Eldar runs into trouble.

For a single Wave Serpent its almost impossible to get the distances exactly right though. If you get within assault range then you are at risk of having the rear hatch blocked (because there is only 1 hatch you don't even have to completely block it, its basically impossible to get 10 Banshees out without packing them in around the hatch), its particularly easy if your opponent can move more than 12" per turn (most likely because they are in transports i.e half the units in the game). You also open yourself up to meltaguns (they might not get 2D6, but they still hurt), rapid firing Plasma and more importantly assaults, which both further increase the chances of having the rear hatch blocked (its an extra 6" of movement) and bypass all your survivability bonuses (hit in the rear so no Energy Fields, no cover saves). Even if they do hit on 6's that still hurts. In a game against another Eldar player at a tournament earlier this year I spent most of the game just parking Serpents behind his assault Serpents so he just had to drive around. If you are too far away then they back up and you can't reach them.

Using 3+ Serpents makes it easier, but then you have the problem that you ARE USING 3+ SERPENTS. They aren't cheap even with minimal weapons, and moving Serpents into close range without having first done significant damage to your opponent is asking for trouble.

Its a moot point though tbh because both Banshees, Scorpions and a Foot Council aren't very good assault units in the first place. When you struggle to reliably beat something as basic as a Tactical Squad its impossible to justify taking them in a competitive setting. They just bounce off any kind of proper assault unit.

Its a moot point though tbh because both Banshees, Scorpions and a Foot Council aren't very good assault units in the first place. When you struggle to reliably beat something as basic as a Tactical Squad its impossible to justify taking them in a competitive setting. They just bounce off any kind of proper assault unit.

This was exactly my point. Eldar has no premium assault unit these days.
Flavius' method works but I'd get a bit nervous if the enemy is that close to my tanks. Hitting the rear even on 6+ is a bad prospect.

Pivoting a vehicle does not count as moving the vehicle..There should be no problem spinning the serpent around, disembarking, and charging. Does it say in the rules that a unit can not charge after disembarking from a trasport that has pivoted? I dont have my book with me......

Yes, the book specifically says (page 66) that passengers can't move or assault the turn they disembarked from a vehicle that has moved, "including pivoting."

Anubis,

It doe snot count for shooting. It actually says you can not assault if the vehicle moves, and pivoting is mentioned as moving for this purpose.

When I field my banshees in causal games- because I love my girls, I use them as counter charge.

I've found that usuing my close combat wave serpents aggressively often results in my squad not performing or doing its job well at all.

I like to put my banshee squad in a wave serpent, then move that wave serpent along with the rest of my fleet. They can then provide a deterant bubble of 6+d6+6 inches around the Serpents. If something like BA assault marines wanders into that bubble- you assault the crap out of em.

BA assualt marines are typically quite pesky for Mech Eldar. 3+ and FnP makes them virtually immune to small arms and scatter lasers, they are cheap enough to make shooting emls a waste, and they are fast enough to reliably threaten wave serpents. Banshees- especially with doom support, will tear them apart. ini 10 power weapons can be good.

Sometimes I will take a squad of Banshees in 2000 point games in a serpent.

Their purpose is to counter-assault. Since most armies in the game out-assault Mechdar, and you can't retreat forever thanks to board size/objective placement, you're going to have to stop enemy assault units eventually.

That's where the Banshees come in. Assaulty army sets up, I shoot and run, eventually I can't run anymore because I've ever run out of space or I need to clear objectives. Then the banshees get out and assault. Because my enemy has spent the entire game coming at me, it should be really easy to get close to something.

But trying to use a Wave Serpent to spearhead an assault unit into enemy lines just isn't viable IMO.

In fact, a mech Eldar army with lots of Serpents should be geared towards shooting rather than assault.
If you want an assault element, I'd suggest to take a Jetseer Council.

Right, one major weakness of a serpent-mounted assault army is that they're only effective against regular infantry. Models that can move 12" in the movement phase can always get away. Jetbike assault units can offset that problem.

Back in the heyday of 4th edition mech Eldar assault, I once lost badly to a necron opponent who had an army made up mostly of destroyers. I would zoom my serpents up to within 1" of the destroyers, and they would zoom away 12" and still get to shoot. My assault units never got to get out of their transports. It was one of the few times I wished for some shining spears. Because of their straight up 18" assault, they can catch faster units like bikes, jump troops, and destroyers. A bike council would do the same, and also be able to pin & hold units while the banshees & harlies come in.

Necrons have always been a nemesis army for Eldar.
They are tough to engage in cc and the Eldar shooting is rather ineffective, especially vs. a Monolith.

wuestenfux wrote:The situation can even get worse if the enemy manages it to move a unit close to the Serpent's back door so that the mounted squad cannot disembark without first moving the Serpent.

This is a common tactic that has been done to me. Luckily we have a new Eldar player in our group where I can now do the same to him

Answering the topic, I usually only ever have Banshees in a serpent, and with Fleet, can sometimes make the assault. A lot of times I don't though, and it sucks. Which is why ideally they're in cover and I always have them Fortuned.

Maureth wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:The situation can even get worse if the enemy manages it to move a unit close to the Serpent's back door so that the mounted squad cannot disembark without first moving the Serpent.

This is a common tactic that has been done to me. Luckily we have a new Eldar player in our group where I can now do the same to him

This can be counter-acted by moving another skimmer, Vyper or Serpent, close to the back door of the Serpent carrying the cc unit.
In this way, the enemy should not be able to block its back door.

Could someone point the OP in the direction of Tau tactics? Seems I remember Tau had some crazy Devilfish tactic where they deployed on the far side of their transport, skimmers didn't block LoS (4th Ed?). Same theory (except now a Wave Serpent may obscure/occlude your view (and you enemy's, for that matter...peek under one sometime to check) due to the true LoS rules). Deploy at the rear, leave Serpent intervening, move serpent next turn, move, assault...good luck?

sry for a noobish question but can't you turn a vehicle around without counting it as moving? and how many inch would that move count as, since the vehicle don't move any inches at all (just switching looking direction).

Somebody else already asked this question earlier in this thread:

Flavius Infernus wrote:Yes, the book specifically says (page 66) that passengers can't move or assault the turn they disembarked from a vehicle that has moved, "including pivoting."

Automatically Appended Next Post:

commissarkurn wrote:Could someone point the OP in the direction of Tau tactics? Seems I remember Tau had some crazy Devilfish tactic where they deployed on the far side of their transport, skimmers didn't block LoS (4th Ed?). Same theory (except now a Wave Serpent may obscure/occlude your view (and you enemy's, for that matter...peek under one sometime to check) due to the true LoS rules). Deploy at the rear, leave Serpent intervening, move serpent next turn, move, assault...good luck?

The Tau fish of fury is for shooting--or was for shooting, most Tau armies don't do this in 5th edition anymore, because the disembarked unit is exposed to enemy fire.

For Eldar assault units it wouldn't give any significant advantage, since your disembark-fleet-move is the same distance from the hatch whether you get out at the end of one turn or the beginning of the next. You might gain between one and two inches if you're able to move the serpent out of the way because you don't have to run around it, but if the serpent is stunned or immobilized then you're in the same boat as before. But the biggest downside is that all your T3 assault troops with poor saves would be exposed to enemy fire for a turn.