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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/17 22:46:24
Subject: Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
University of St. Andrews
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Arizona Daily Star wrote:The Pima County Regional SWAT team fired 71 shots in seven seconds at a Tucson man they say pointed a gun at officers serving a search warrant at his home.
Jose Guerena, 26, a former Marine who served in Iraq twice, was holding an AR-15 rifle when he was killed, but he never fired a shot, the Sheriff's Department said Monday after initially saying he had fired on officers during last week's raid.
Six days after Guerena was shot, few details about the investigation that brought the SWAT team to the southwest-side home Guerena shared with his wife and their two young sons are known. Guerena's role in the narcotics investigation is unclear and deputies would not comment on what was seized from his home.
Three other homes within a quarter of a mile from Guerena's house, were served search warrants related to the investigation that morning. The addresses and the names of people who live in the other homes have not been made public.
Vanessa Guerena says she heard noise outside their home about 9 a.m. Thursday and woke her husband who had just gone to bed after working a 12-hour shift at the Asarco Mine, she said. There were no sirens or shouts of "police," she said.
Guerena told his wife and son to hide inside a closet and he grabbed the AR-15 rifle, his wife said.
The department says SWAT members were clear when identifying themselves while entering the home.
"Tucson is notorious for home invasions and we didn't want to look like that," said Lt. Michael O'Connor of the Pima County Sheriff's Department. "We went lights and sirens and we absolutely did not do a 'no-knock' warrant."
When five SWAT members broke through the front door Guerena was crouched down pointing the gun at them, said O'Connor.
"The suspect said, 'I've got something for you,' when he saw them," O'Connor said. Guerena's wife denied he said that.
Deputies began shooting.
A deputy's bullet struck the side of the doorway, causing chips of wood to fall on his shield. That prompted some members of the team to think the deputy had been shot, O'Connor said.
The Sheriff's Department put in a call to Drexel Heights fire at 9:43 a.m. requesting assistance with a shooting. But crews were told to hold off.
Guerena was dead by the time they were allowed in the house, fire officials said.
Vanessa Guerena vividly remembers seeing her wounded husband.
"When I came out the officers dragged me through the kitchen and took me outside, and that's when I saw him laying there gasping for air," Vanessa Guerena said. "I kept begging the officers to call an ambulance that maybe he could make it and that my baby was still inside."
The little boy soon after walked out of the closet on his own. SWAT members took him outside to be with his mother.
"I never imagined I would lose him like that, he was badly injured but I never thought he could be killed by police after he served his country," Vanessa Guerena said.
The family's 5-year-old son was at school that morning and deputies say they thought Guerena's wife and his other child would also be gone when they entered the home.
Guerena says there were no drugs in their house.
Deputies said they seized a "large sum of money from another house" that morning. But they refused to say from which of the homes searched that morning they found narcotics, drug ledgers or drug paraphernalia. Court documents showing what was being sought and was found have not been made public. A computer check on Guerena revealed a couple of traffic tickets and no criminal history.
Guerena was a Tucson native and Flowing Wells High School graduate. He joined the U.S. Marines in 2002. He served two tours in Iraq in 2003 and 2005 as part of the Yuma-based MWSS-173 under direct supervision of Master Sgt. Leo Verdugo.
Verdugo was with Guerena's family Tuesday afternoon. He gave them a Marine Corps jacket and gloves to use at Guerena's burial.
"He was an excellent Marine, with a bright future ahead of him," Verdugo said.
"We had just bought a home and he was working graveyard shifts and overtime just to help pay the bills, we were just starting to make this house our home," Vanessa Guerena said.
"I know I can't have him back but I want justice. I want explanations for what happened," she said.
Source
I don't know what to think about this, as far as I can tell there are two differing stories. One is the wife's that the police arrived without warning....and the other is the police's that they followed standard procedure.....
I'm interested to see what will come of this. What does dakka think?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/17 22:46:42
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
707th Lubyan Aquila Banner Motor Rifle Regiment (6000 pts)
Battlefleet Tomania (2500 pts)
Visit my nation on Nation States!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 00:11:37
Subject: Re:Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Nasty business. Even if he was dealing drugs, it's a nasty business.
But when there are police raiding people's houses in paramilitary gear, and you have a culture of armed resistance against people coming in to your home, then its kind of inevitable that people are going to be shot every so often.
I'm not really sure what can be done about that.
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 00:53:48
Subject: Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Renegade Inquisitor de Marche
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Those guys f**ked up bad...
I agree with Sebster.
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Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 01:01:37
Subject: Re:Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
University of St. Andrews
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Some more information.
UCSON, Ariz. (KGUN9-TV) - A decorated Marine's family cannot believe their loved one, who served two tours of duty overseas, is gone; never expecting him to die here at home at the hands of law enforcement.
A Pima County Sheriff's Department SWAT team shot and killed Jose Guerena eight days ago; it was executing a search warrant. Four days ago, in a news conference, a sheriff's deputy said the department makes it clear when SWAT is about to enter a home. Lt. Michael O'Connor says SWAT says it never wants to be mistaken for other people, "We had our large armored vehicle there with the markings on it. It also has lights and sirens. It was going. So we do everything we can to try to portray the image that we're law enforcement, we're not home invaders."
But, Guerena's wife, Vanessa, who hid in the closet with her youngest son while 71 rounds were fired her husband's direction, said she heard nothing. At any point did you hear them yell, ‘police" or ‘SWAT'?" KGUN9 asked. "No, no!" answered Guerena.
A neighbor who heard the shooting corroborates the wife's account, "The only sirens I heard out here were like maybe 20-30 minutes into the entire ordeal," said David Watson.
Watson is very familiar with gunfire and stressful situations; he's a Vietnam combat veteran, "I want to make this as clear as possible: you only heard the announcements after you heard the gunfire?" asked KGUN9 reporter Joel Waldman. Watson quickly answered, "Yes!"
Raising questions about this assertion: "This was not a "no knock" warrant. We come in very high profile with lights and sirens. We go to the door. We pound on the door. We wait 15 seconds, and, then, we breach the door with a heavy tool and open the door," explained O'Connor.
Today, KGUN9 also learned SWAT Guerena's neighbor's house. "When I came home, the whole house was searched. All the doors were open. And, (our house) was searched through; it was like an invasion of privacy," said Carissa Franco.
SWAT says it was concerned about a hole in the Franco's home, worried someone else could've been wounded. So, it said it did what they needed to get inside.
Pima County released a statement about that breach, saying in part, "The Regional SWAT Team made entry into two additional residences very soon after the deadly force encounter. This was done in order to ensure that there were no injured persons in those residences as a result of the shooting. These entries were made without warrants due to the exigency of the circumstances. No one was home at either residence when entry was made.
According to a neighbour, there were no sirens or announcements until after the shooting.
While I can understand the police's actions, if you're raiding a house you think might house a violent drug dealer, and you see a guy aiming an assault rifle at you, it makes sense to open fire. However, I'm much more concerned with the apparent statement that there were no announcements.
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"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
707th Lubyan Aquila Banner Motor Rifle Regiment (6000 pts)
Battlefleet Tomania (2500 pts)
Visit my nation on Nation States!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 01:52:03
Subject: Re:Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Fixture of Dakka
On a boat, Trying not to die.
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So, Men in black armor storm into your house, unannounced, and begin to raid your house?
I'd shoot them, yeah.
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Every Normal Man Must Be Tempted At Times To Spit On His Hands, Hoist That Black Flag, And Begin Slitting Throats. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 02:04:19
Subject: Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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No-knocks and lack of announcements aren't unheard of in situations where they think a violent criminal is involved.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 02:16:51
Subject: Re:Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Chowderhead wrote:So, Men in black armor storm into your house, unannounced, and begin to raid your house?
I'd shoot them, yeah.
Well, you might try.
These guys do this for a living, and there's a lot of them, so odds are you'd more likey get shot than anything else. Like what happened in this story.
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 02:30:58
Subject: Re:Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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sebster wrote:Nasty business. Even if he was dealing drugs, it's a nasty business.
But when there are police raiding people's houses in paramilitary gear, and you have a culture of armed resistance against people coming in to your home, then its kind of inevitable that people are going to be shot every so often.
I'm not really sure what can be done about that.
Yep, it's just kinda how it goes. I know I'd be scared enough to resist if armed men burst into my house, shouting police or no.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/18 02:31:06
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 04:05:01
Subject: Re:Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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sebster wrote:Chowderhead wrote:So, Men in black armor storm into your house, unannounced, and begin to raid your house?
I'd shoot them, yeah.
Well, you might try.
These guys do this for a living, and there's a lot of them, so odds are you'd more likey get shot than anything else. Like what happened in this story.
This. This guy was a marine combat veteran and he still got shot. The simple fact is that SWAT has the overwhelming advantage 99.9% of the time. I usually side with police in these cases, but it's starting to sound like "the blue wall" is going up because someone effed up. Time (and law suits no doubt) will tell.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 04:27:08
Subject: Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
In your base, ignoring your logic.
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This one time this kid tried to bum-rush a SWAT sgt during a bomb threat at my school. Kid was busted up and charged, so yeah 99.99% of the time SWAT will win.
Its also pretty hard not to notice a SWAT vehicle, they're big, black, and armored. Think of an armored UPS truck painted black with the word SWAT painted on the side in white. If you don't notice that I would suggest visiting an optometrist.
As far as the guy being a marine and a suspected violent criminal, its not as uncommon as people think. Sometimes people have affiliations before entering the service and keep them during and afterwards. That's why you can see "MS-13" on some walls in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 04:41:15
Subject: Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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halonachos wrote:This one time this kid tried to bum-rush a SWAT sgt during a bomb threat at my school. Kid was busted up and charged, so yeah 99.99% of the time SWAT will win.
Its also pretty hard not to notice a SWAT vehicle, they're big, black, and armored. Think of an armored UPS truck painted black with the word SWAT painted on the side in white. If you don't notice that I would suggest visiting an optometrist.
As far as the guy being a marine and a suspected violent criminal, its not as uncommon as people think. Sometimes people have affiliations before entering the service and keep them during and afterwards. That's why you can see "MS-13" on some walls in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Apparently, they were asleep. Remember, this guy worked the graveyard shift. Basically it appears to be a case of man awoken in the middle of the "night" and goes to confront what he assumes is a burglar. Gets shot by SWAT.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 05:04:19
Subject: Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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It wasn't 'night', it was morning, as attested to the call coming in at 9:43 am. Even if it happened at 8 am that still isn't night.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 05:08:28
Subject: Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
In your base, ignoring your logic.
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If the guy worked the late shift it depends on where he worked. A 7-11 is open 24-7 so a late shift could end at 12:00am, if he worked at a retailer using normal business hours a late shift could end between 7:00pm and 10:00pm.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 07:17:05
Subject: Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
University of St. Andrews
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halonachos wrote:If the guy worked the late shift it depends on where he worked. A 7-11 is open 24-7 so a late shift could end at 12:00am, if he worked at a retailer using normal business hours a late shift could end between 7:00pm and 10:00pm.
According to his wife he works the graveyard shift, and had gotten home a couple hours before the incident occured. So yeah, they were both asleep at the time, as good as if it was the middle of the night.
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"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
707th Lubyan Aquila Banner Motor Rifle Regiment (6000 pts)
Battlefleet Tomania (2500 pts)
Visit my nation on Nation States!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 07:26:48
Subject: Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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If that was what was meant by the apostrophes around night, then that makes a bit more sense, but it would still be daylight enough to see people as opposed to being dark outside.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 08:17:38
Subject: Re:Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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If you're so groggy from sleep that you can't tell cops from robbers, is it fair to say you shouldn't go about engaging anyone with a gun?
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 11:33:34
Subject: Re:Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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ChrisWWII wrote:Some more information.
...
While I can understand the police's actions, if you're raiding a house you think might house a violent drug dealer, and you see a guy aiming an assault rifle at you, it makes sense to open fire. However, I'm much more concerned with the apparent statement that there were no announcements.
Exactly. There's a reason why no-knock warrants are extremely rare, the police should identify themselves before they enter for their own safety and the safety of others. I'm generally inclined to give cops the benefit of the doubt, they're professional evidence-gatherers after all, but in this case it looks like someone seriously f'd up in the PD.
If the facts are as the cops say, then taking the guy out was legit.
If the cops never identified themselves before forcing their way in, whoever killed this guy should be sent to prison for at least second degree murder.
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text removed by Moderation team. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 11:40:45
Subject: Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Kanluwen wrote:No-knocks and lack of announcements aren't unheard of in situations where they think a violent criminal is involved.
Indeed, when you're a Zeta storming a house, you don't want to announce yourself. This screams shenanigans.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 11:52:32
Subject: Re:Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
University of St. Andrews
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sebster wrote:If you're so groggy from sleep that you can't tell cops from robbers, is it fair to say you shouldn't go about engaging anyone with a gun?
The point seems to be that it wasn't that he was groggy, it was that he heard someone breaking into his house, without any prior identification. I don't know about you, but if I heard that happening I'd assume 'burglar' or worse, and if I had access to a weapon of some kind to defend myself I'd do it.
I understand WHY the police should have the ability to use a no-knock warrant, but I'm wondering why the police would perform such an operation unless they were expecting violent resistance.
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"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
707th Lubyan Aquila Banner Motor Rifle Regiment (6000 pts)
Battlefleet Tomania (2500 pts)
Visit my nation on Nation States!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 11:55:09
Subject: Re:Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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If you're so groggy from sleep that you can't tell cops from robbers, is it fair to say you shouldn't go about engaging anyone with a gun?
Maybe. But this guy was a trained solider who served two tours. Between his training, and perhaps PTSD, he may have had a relapsed, thinking he was back in a combat, and acted reflexively.. War tends to traumatized some like that.
Let us remember we are only hearing the side from the cops, who are living, against a dead man who tells no tales. The Cops have everything to gain to pin it all on the victim. No drugs in the house. "Oops, sorry we used blunt force to invade your home and shot your daddy, kids. It was a mistake." The War on Drugs is a massive failure, with too much collateral damage.
You know, they could have just camped outside with some uncover cops, and surprised him at his car. I think many of these SWAT drug raids are overkill, where big boys just like to dress up in militarized gear.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/05/18 12:03:04
"All right, sweethearts, what are you waiting for? Breakfast in bed? Another glorious day in the Corps! A day in the Marine Corps is like a day on the farm. Every meal's a banquet! Every paycheck a fortune! Every formation a parade! I LOVE the Corps!" ---Sgt. Apone
"I say we take off, and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."-----Ripley
Brushfire's Painting Blog Gallery
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 12:17:32
Subject: Re:Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Brushfire wrote:You know, they could have just camped outside with some uncover cops, and surprised him at his car. I think many of these SWAT drug raids are overkill, where big boys just like to dress up in militarized gear.
I think you're right on the overkill, but wrong on the reason. SWAT teams in major metropolitan areas may be necessary in a few circumstances, but the rest of the time they would just sit around and play cards. So to justify the expense to the taxpayer, they do periodic raids on low-priority targets. Throw in some allegations of weapons or drugs, an anonymous tip and you've got some juicy bits to feed to the evening news and the taxpayers don't start thinking "why the hell do we spend so much on a SWAT team that never does anything?"
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text removed by Moderation team. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 12:22:13
Subject: Re:Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Brushfire wrote:If you're so groggy from sleep that you can't tell cops from robbers, is it fair to say you shouldn't go about engaging anyone with a gun?
Maybe. But this guy was a trained solider who served two tours. Between his training, and perhaps PTSD, he may have had a relapsed, thinking he was back in a combat, and acted reflexively.. War tends to traumatized some like that.
Let us remember we are only hearing the side from the cops, who are living, against a dead man who tells no tales. The Cops have everything to gain to pin it all on the victim. No drugs in the house. "Oops, sorry we used blunt force to invade your home and shot your daddy, kids. It was a mistake." The War on Drugs is a massive failure, with too much collateral damage.
You know, they could have just camped outside with some uncover cops, and surprised him at his car. I think many of these SWAT drug raids are overkill, where big boys just like to dress up in militarized gear.
Agreed. Note the location as well. Mexico crime violence is spilling over all along the border. To come rushing in unannounced is inviting a gun battle. Automatically Appended Next Post: biccat wrote:Brushfire wrote:You know, they could have just camped outside with some uncover cops, and surprised him at his car. I think many of these SWAT drug raids are overkill, where big boys just like to dress up in militarized gear.
I think you're right on the overkill, but wrong on the reason. SWAT teams in major metropolitan areas may be necessary in a few circumstances, but the rest of the time they would just sit around and play cards. So to justify the expense to the taxpayer, they do periodic raids on low-priority targets. Throw in some allegations of weapons or drugs, an anonymous tip and you've got some juicy bits to feed to the evening news and the taxpayers don't start thinking "why the hell do we spend so much on a SWAT team that never does anything?"
I heard a new term recently and its really resonating with me: "Security industrial complex."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/18 12:23:42
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 12:45:45
Subject: Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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sebster wrote:If you're so groggy from sleep that you can't tell cops from robbers, is it fair to say you shouldn't go about engaging anyone with a gun?
It doesn't really matter what one's physical state is when one's life is on the line.
Besides, robbers can easily dress as police anyway. So can rapists and other scumbags.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 13:50:35
Subject: Re:Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
Lubeck
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I heard that some special forces and police units use helmet cameras to record the whole operation. Does anybody know if this might be true for American SWAT teams? I think the German GSG 9 may be doing this...IF there would be footage, the PD would probably be careful showing it, but it may be the one piece of clear evidence that could be needed in this case.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 14:01:10
Subject: Re:Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Kid_Kyoto
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Witzkatz wrote:I heard that some special forces and police units use helmet cameras to record the whole operation. Does anybody know if this might be true for American SWAT teams? I think the German GSG 9 may be doing this...IF there would be footage, the PD would probably be careful showing it, but it may be the one piece of clear evidence that could be needed in this case.
No. That's called 'liability'. Next thing you know some bleeding heart would actually be looking at the footage and suddenly throwing a fit because dangerous criminals were getting shot before they pulled their guns, or had their guns planted on them, for that matter. Do you have any idea what that would do to the number of legitimate prosecutions? I'm just glad they caught and kilt the very obviously ebil and rong drug dealer, making our schools, playgrounds, and wholesome Christian churches safe and sound once again. Automatically Appended Next Post: Can I get a God bless America?
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/05/18 14:06:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 14:31:27
Subject: Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Frazzled wrote:Kanluwen wrote:No-knocks and lack of announcements aren't unheard of in situations where they think a violent criminal is involved.
Indeed, when you're a Zeta storming a house, you don't want to announce yourself. This screams shenanigans.
And when you're a cop storming a house of a potential Zeta, you don't want to announce yourself either.
Speed and surprise, especially if there's a known wife and child in the house and they're concerned for the safety of potential hostages, are the only real advantage they have when dealing with these situations.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 14:37:15
Subject: Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Kanluwen wrote:Frazzled wrote:Kanluwen wrote:No-knocks and lack of announcements aren't unheard of in situations where they think a violent criminal is involved.
Indeed, when you're a Zeta storming a house, you don't want to announce yourself. This screams shenanigans.
And when you're a cop storming a house of a potential Zeta, you don't want to announce yourself either.
Speed and surprise, especially if there's a known wife and child in the house and they're concerned for the safety of potential hostages, are the only real advantage they have when dealing with these situations.
Bull gak. If you don't announce you're creating this type of situation and depending on your jurisidction you can blow the search.
As announcing is as simple as "Police police police" at the same time you kick the door and throw poppers in the windows, not doing so inexcusable.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 14:43:07
Subject: Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Frazzled wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Frazzled wrote:Kanluwen wrote:No-knocks and lack of announcements aren't unheard of in situations where they think a violent criminal is involved.
Indeed, when you're a Zeta storming a house, you don't want to announce yourself. This screams shenanigans.
And when you're a cop storming a house of a potential Zeta, you don't want to announce yourself either.
Speed and surprise, especially if there's a known wife and child in the house and they're concerned for the safety of potential hostages, are the only real advantage they have when dealing with these situations.
Bull gak. If you don't announce you're creating this type of situation and depending on your jurisdiction you can blow the search.
Yes, because clearly every single individual is going to be firing at the police. Or have a wife in the house who somehow managed to count the rounds "fired at her husband".
As announcing is as simple as "Police police police" at the same time you kick the door and throw poppers in the windows, not doing so is inexcusable.
Yeah you're right, it is inexcusable.
But so is simply the fact that things like this are becoming more and more commonplace in terms of the Zetas and other drug organizations from the Mexico Cartels doing these kinds of things on the US side of the border.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 14:46:37
Subject: Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Kanluwen wrote:Frazzled wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Frazzled wrote:Kanluwen wrote:No-knocks and lack of announcements aren't unheard of in situations where they think a violent criminal is involved.
Indeed, when you're a Zeta storming a house, you don't want to announce yourself. This screams shenanigans.
And when you're a cop storming a house of a potential Zeta, you don't want to announce yourself either.
Speed and surprise, especially if there's a known wife and child in the house and they're concerned for the safety of potential hostages, are the only real advantage they have when dealing with these situations.
Bull gak. If you don't announce you're creating this type of situation and depending on your jurisdiction you can blow the search.
Yes, because clearly every single individual is going to be firing at the police. Or have a wife in the house who somehow managed to count the rounds "fired at her husband".
As announcing is as simple as "Police police police" at the same time you kick the door and throw poppers in the windows, not doing so is inexcusable.
Yeah you're right, it is inexcusable.
But so is simply the fact that things like this are becoming more and more commonplace in terms of the Zetas and other drug organizations from the Mexico Cartels doing these kinds of things on the US side of the border.
Kicking in the door and not announcing you are police- yes thats absolutely an excellent way for people to die. i don't know about there, but here "home invasions" occasionally occur. If I see a bunch of guys coming up with guns I don't recognize I'm popping rounds fast, preferably while they are outside.
Having said that, we are indeed only getting part of the story. But we'll never know all the story, and what we have smells.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 14:49:15
Subject: Marine Killed in Drug Raid on His Home in AZ
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Savage Minotaur
Chicago
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I just think this is terrible, but reminds me of the Harold and Kumar thing when he is in jail.
*Deputy fires his gun into the wall*
"HE SHOT AT US SHOOT HIM"
*72 bullets go into the man who was armed, but had never taken a threatening action*
"We got him, close call boys"
I mean, it just sounds ridiculous. The man probably realized that these people were SWAT members instead of burglars, but just didn't put his gun down fast enough, so they murdered him.
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