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HQ
skulltaker
the masque

ELITES
3 flamers

TROOPS
10 bloodletters
10 bloodletters
10 pink horrors, bolt of tzeentch
changling
10 pink horrors, bolt of tzeentch
10 pink horrors, bolt of tzeentch
10 pink horrors, bolt of tzeentch

HEAVY SUPPORT
daemon prince, wings, iron hide, mark of khorne, blessing of the blood god.
daemon prince, wings, iron hide, mark of khorne, blessing of the blood god.

im trying to keep it as cheap as i can (money wise) as well as at least being semi-competitive.
NOTE - I already have 2 daemon princes as part of my chaos marine army, which is why Ive included them.

Well i think you've failed on the semi-competitive side.

Bolt Horror squads in my opinion, shouldn't be squads of 10.... 5-6 should be fine, because their primary aim is to use Bolt.
Skulltaker, is good, but probably needs to be either on a Jug in Bloodcrusher squad, or in a larger Bloodletter squad, as it wouldn't be too hard for even 'ok' shooty armies to whittle down 10 t4 5+(+) save Bloodletters.... Leaving him on his own, and dead.

Flamers have no icon to come down on, which while some people may play it like that, this just seems like a wasted unit.

Expensive Daemon Princes, are ok, but just 2 MC they could have a serious problem, because there is just 2 of them.

The masque is a nice character, not 100% on best way to use here though, although in this list, like the flamers, just seems to be their for the sake of it.


I don't really know what advice to give you on building the army, because this (unless i've got it all wrong) just doesn't look like it will work very well.
If you want to use the Daemon Princes, maybe get 2 Bloodthirsters another Daemon Prince, and have a 'Daemon Bomb' list....

If you are going to run a army with 2 MC's then give the Princes mark of nurgle. It helps with dakka armies and you can equip with grenades so he maintains his initiative when assaulting in cover.

I have no idea where to begin without starting over from scratch.

Daemon's strongest FOC slot is the Elite slot. I fill this before even contemplating the heavy support section. The Masque will die a horrible death long before it can use its weak lash and you'll almost never have 3 targets in range to get the most use out of it (since you can't target the same unit in the same shooting phase). Your Horror units are WAY too big and will suffer against most MEQ armies (their shooting just isn't effective enough for the points).

Our strongest units-
Fateweaver
Herald of Tzeentch on chariot with Bolt/Gaze/Master of Sorcery

Plaguebearers (objective holding)
5 man Horror units with Bolt

Bloodcrushers
Fiends
Flamers (though I hate to take suicide units)

Daemon Princes, either MoT, Bolt or MoN Hide/Wings/Cloud

Fast Attack maybes are Seekers and Screamers (though screamers are very situational and if you don't face tanks they are worthless).

Yeah, Krisken here is giving sound advice!

Horror units run fine in sets of 5. Plagubearers are great speedbumps and objective holders. If you insist on using Bloodletters, I would suggest using them in units of 14+ ... maybe 12+. Everybody knows that they hit hard in CC so they usually suffer some serious shooting.

Ive also grown fond of the Soundgrinder, but seeing how you got the princes, Id run em as tzeentch princes also.

Flachzange wrote:If you insist on using Bloodletters, I would suggest using them in units of 14+ ... maybe 12+. Everybody knows that they hit hard in CC so they usually suffer some serious shooting.

While Flachzange has pointed out the problem with Bloodletters--with only a 5+ save to their name, they're quite allergic to boltguns--but I disagree with running them in large units. Rather, Bloodletters are most efficient when run in multiple small units.

Daemons tend to win the game through one of two paths: Target saturation or territory control. (The latter involves objective-nabbing lists with plaguebearers, and can be discussed elsewhere.)

Target saturation is simple: Give your opponent too many things that he NEEDS to shoot at right this minute. If you throw four units of bloodletters in his face (along with other threats like Daemon Princes, Crushers, Fiends, et cetera), he can either focus fire on a few units, leaving the others to run in and rip up, or spread out his fire, and leave you with multiple units of 2-3 bloodletters. 3 bloodletters, for the record, will still roll a 10-man tac squad on average rolls.

I agree with most all comments made above.

BUT...

Lets do a side by side comparison.... Bloodthrister vs Daemon Prince of Khorne. Firstly the weaponskill is FAR better with the thirsters AND attacks. With that being said the strength and armour saves are far better. IMHO princes, like Daemonhound said, nugle is the way to go if your going to field one of them.Bloodthirsters are much better overall in every aspect.

Your list looks alright so far but, there needs to be some changes. Big squads of horrors work much better but personally, as an Apoc player and having fielded 45 Pink/Blue horrors in 40k games, they get MAULED TO DEATH.

If your going to field that many hoes than you'll need some CC to back them up, otherwise you're just GIVING away points to the meat grinder. You will NEVER win combat with them and fearless just means you stand there and die... believe me (ive failed more than you ever will)

Now, the masque, having recently used her in my latest game, is pure annihilation in combination with lots of flamers. Heres my tactica.... Pavane their troops into nice little flame template shapes.... and melt them into the ground.

That being said, I know you're tight on funds BUT EVERY SINGLE FLAMER IS WORTH ITS WEIGHT IN GOLD AND THE ASHES OF YOUR ENEMY!

They are pure firepower (pun intended) and they can glance on 4+, by FAR they are the best elites in the codex and they come in massive squads of 12 (5-8 per squad is ideal). They can burn or melt anything in their path and make sure to position you're flame templates over enough troops and if at all possible a corners or two of a vehicle. (glances still can hurt)

Overall, its not a bad idea to field a horde of horrors but keep in mind they will be trampeled to death by anything with decent CC. Instead of letters bring a fat squad of crushers (8 in a squad with icon) and then fill the rest of your elites with flamers. That way the crushers will sandbag your enemy, draw lots of fire, provide an icon, and give a nice meaty 4+ cover save to your sensitive hoes behind them.

Finally but most IMPORTANTLY.... bring at least 1 or 2 grinders to the table. They are 13 13 11 walkers with possessed. ARE YOU KIDDING! Sure they can attract bullets like a magnet but hey its better than having those bolter rounds put into your horrors. The daemons WIN by having the enemy make hard choices. Give them lots to choose from and you'll throw off their game, when they pick something to empty out on, capitalize on that and use the rest of the army thats still around to wipe them out.

btw.... ditch the skulltaker. Thirsters are where its at.

How about this.

HQ
herald of tzeentch, chariot, bolt
herald of tzeentch, chariot, bolt
herald of tzeentch, chariot, bolt

ELITES
5 flamers
4 blood crushers, all upgrades
4 blood crushers, all upgrades

TROOPS
5 pink horrors, bolt, changling
5 pink horrors, bolt
5 plague bearers
5 plague bearers
5 plague bearers
5 plague bearers

HEAVY SUPPORT
soul grinder, phlegm, tongue
soul grinder, phlegm, tongue

Yeah thats much much better.
You have 5 Bolts, 4 tough (albeit) small troop units. 2 big blasts/decent CC monsters. 8 BC who will dish out some damage, 5 flamers who can kill Marines very well... So overall a much more solid list.

Drop either bolt or tongue on the SG to equip your heralds with Master of Sorcery so they can fire their gaze and bolt. Also, I would throw an icon on one PB unit so you can have one in your second wave. I am presuming your wave split will feature 2x SG, 3x Herald, 2x BC

HQ
herald of tzeentch, chariot, bolt, master of sorcery
herald of tzeentch, chariot, bolt, master of sorcery
herald of tzeentch, chariot, bolt, master of sorcery

ELITES
5 flamers
4 blood crushers, all upgrades
4 blood crushers, all upgrades

TROOPS
5 pink horrors, bolt, changling
5 pink horrors, bolt
5 plague bearers, icon
5 plague bearers, icon
5 plague bearers
5 plague bearers

HEAVY SUPPORT
soul grinder, phlegm
soul grinder, phlegm

Hey Woodbok,

Your last list is indeed a lot better than the previous one. It can however still be finetuned:

HQ
100 herald of tzeentch, chariot, bolt, master of sorcery
100 herald of tzeentch, chariot, bolt, master of sorcery
100 herald of tzeentch, chariot, bolt, master of sorcery

ELITES
105 3 flamers
200 4 blood crushers, all upgrades
200 4 blood crushers, all upgrades

TROOPS
100 5 pink horrors, bolt, changeling
95 5 pink horrors, bolt
75 5 plague bearers
75 5 plague bearers

HEAVY SUPPORT
160 soul grinder, phlegm
160 soul grinder, phlegm
160 soul grinder, phlegm

1630

You have enough Icons with the Crushers. Flamers are suicide and not durable at all. 3 have almost the same potential for damage as 5 do and less points are wasted. In 1750 points these 4 troops choices are durable enough. Saving points could get you to add an additional threat.

The points saved could buy you:

120 8 Flesh Hounds

or

100 herald of tzeentch, chariot, bolt, master of sorcery
+ 1 additional Pink Horror

Also, personally I'd rather have
160 Deamon Prince, MoT, Bolt, Gaze
Instead of the Grinders, but theres an argument to be made for both...

Good luck with the list!

Cilithan

Cilithan gets a hundred points. I would even advocate a unit of 6 Fiends over the Flamers, but other than that personal preference spot on analysis.

Carraway Effect wrote:

Flachzange wrote:If you insist on using Bloodletters, I would suggest using them in units of 14+ ... maybe 12+. Everybody knows that they hit hard in CC so they usually suffer some serious shooting.

While Flachzange has pointed out the problem with Bloodletters--with only a 5+ save to their name, they're quite allergic to boltguns--but I disagree with running them in large units. Rather, Bloodletters are most efficient when run in multiple small units.

Daemons tend to win the game through one of two paths: Target saturation or territory control. (The latter involves objective-nabbing lists with plaguebearers, and can be discussed elsewhere.)

Target saturation is simple: Give your opponent too many things that he NEEDS to shoot at right this minute. If you throw four units of bloodletters in his face (along with other threats like Daemon Princes, Crushers, Fiends, et cetera), he can either focus fire on a few units, leaving the others to run in and rip up, or spread out his fire, and leave you with multiple units of 2-3 bloodletters. 3 bloodletters, for the record, will still roll a 10-man tac squad on average rolls.

Sorry about dragin this back up, but I just now saw this comment.
To be honest, I have so far only fielded two squads of 12. Ill go ahead and try that out though 4 units of 10 I suppose. Thanks for the advice Carraway Effect