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Hey, im posting on behalf of a friend.

We have a buddy who plays Dark Angels, and in their 600 pt game he brought some terminators, Belial, and an Apothecary apparently. There's a few things I wanted to know as I do not play Dark Angels and dont have great access to a codex but if someone could clear up or verify some of the rules I've heard he's been using.

Terminators with 3+ invunerable saves, and feel no pain. Apparently Dark Angel Terminators with lightning claws have 3+ invunerable saves, and the Apothecary lets them roll FNP on all unsaved wounds.

I did slight research and I thought Terminators had a +5 invuenrable, +4 with stormshields, Belial /HQ's ive seen have 3+ though. The apothecary rules i read states he cannot be failling back, pinned, or in CC. And it sounds like once per game turn ( meaning a full round) he can use his equipment ( i cant spell it) to let a model ignore an unsaved wound. Now my question is .. is this every unsaved wound? is it 1 model? what is it ? I run CSM, and I know my Plague Marines get FNP if i fail armor saves, and whatnot.. just not against instant death or AP1 weaponry.

Thunderhammers are 8S, Initiative 1, and lower your opponents initiative to 1 if you hit them.

Wouldnt Belial and Apothecary count as 2HQ's?

Also the way they worded Belial being able to take terminators as troop choices and elites.. it sounded like that makes Terminators count as 1 Troop Choice & 1 Elite choice. IE you take 3 terminator squads, you go from 3 elites, 6 troop choices. To 0 elite choices, and 3 troop choices left over.


Hopefully some of this is wrong, as it terrifies me.. I dont know how I'm going to kill terminators with 3+ invulnerable saves, feel no pain, with lightning claws.

New Dark Angels FAQ has changed the rules. Apothecary now simply gives FNP to the squad. He's not an IC, he is just an upgrade for one of the Terminators so he doesn't take any extra slot. Also, Storm Shields were changed to 3++ like in other Marine books.

Old DA Apothecary rule indeed let you ignore one wound per turn, regardless of how it was caused.

so if his entire squad suffers 10 unsaved wounds, he may only use it on 1 ? or do they get Feel no Pain AND he can take away 1 unsaved?


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I feel like its going to be incredibly hard to take down terminators like that.. thats pretty impenetrable.

decoste007xt wrote:so if his entire squad suffers 10 unsaved wounds, he may only use it on 1 ? or do they get Feel no Pain AND he can take away 1 unsaved?


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I feel like its going to be incredibly hard to take down terminators like that.. thats pretty impenetrable.

Feel No Pain means if a model fails a save taken against something that is NOT AP1/2, rending, a power weapon, or double their toughness, they get a further 4+ Feel No Pain save. This means the best way to kill Terminators with Feel No Pain is the best way to kill Terminators without feel no pain: Power weapons and high strength/low AP weapons. Also, Terminators with lightning claws have a 5+ invuln, it's only Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Terminators who get the 3+ invulnerable.

Cam Dark Angel terminators equip meltabombs or krak grenades? Can Belial or the Apothecary then ?

decoste007xt wrote:Cam Dark Angel terminators equip meltabombs or krak grenades? Can Belial or the Apothecary then ?

No, no, no and no. Terminators usually have powerfists or chainfists which are better for wrecking tanks. .

Alright, just wondering..cause our friend was using them against his Killerkans. My friends tearing his hair out trying to think how orkz in a 600pt game are going to overpower terminators. I guess in a 30 boy squad he loses half of them on a charge, and kills barely 1 terminator.

I know power weapons and low AP are the key.. is his only option Nob squads w/ powerklaw here?


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Apparently he fields 2 5 man terminator lightning claw squads, Belial and an Apothecary.

I know as CSM if i had to fight him i would either Opt for a Demon Prince with warptime, gift of chaos(maybe). then terminators... or 2 ,5 man squads of plague marines armed with 2 plasma guns each, 2 powerfists, and 2 plasma pistols.

Every boyz mob should have a power klaw. Literally every single one. Boyz squads are honestly power klaw delivery systems. On the charge, a Nob will have like 4 attacks with his klaw. Two will hit, both will wound, and at least one will usually go through. Couple that with upwards of 100+ Ork attacks and they can overrun Terminators without too much effort.

On a charge boyz have 3 initiative. Apparently he's losing close to 15 boyz on a charge. So now we have 14 boyz, and 1 nob to attack back. Most of the boy attacks fail trying to get past a 2+ armor save, and FNP. then his 1 powerklaw MIGHt get through. so 1 terminator is dead out of 10.

Round 2, terminators finish off the boyz, he has to roll morale.. ends up fleeing or just plain dying to all of the powerklaw attacks and its over.

How is he losing 15 boyz on a charge? If they're 5 dudes with Lightning claws, that's 15 attacks. Even on the charge, those are going to have a hell of a time causing 10 wounds let alone 15. We're comparing units in a vacuum here which never gets terribly far. He should just learn to concentrate his fire on one squad of dudes at a time in order to bring them down. 30 shootas and 30 sluggas should wipe out just about anything.

20 Attacks due to the Dark Angels battle standard, and lightning claws reroll wounds, and orkz have no armor save to claws/invunerable save. I can see atleast 10 getting through for sure (50% for WS, and most will hit on a 4+ S w/ rerolls).

This is also going to go much smoother when we make the guy realize he doesnt get +3 invunerable saves on lightning claw terminators, he doesn't get FNP w/ instant death lol.

20 attacks = 10 hits = 5 wounds plus 2.5 with the re-roll = 7.5 dead, on average.

Which leaves 22 boyz, which is 88 attacks, 44 hits, 22 wounds and 6 dead.

Plus the Nob which is 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds and 0.66 dead.

So on average, 7.5 dead boyz and 6.66 dead terminators. Or 3.33 with FNP.

The Orks will be Fearless, the Terminators won't.

Oh and the Terminators will lose up to 250 points, the Orks 48 points...


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Of course, you could have Doc Grotsnik in your army and upgrade the Boyz to have Cybork Bodies and a 5+ invulnerable save but it near doubles the cost of each one. You're better off just buying more bodies

Miraclefish wrote:.

The Orks will be Fearless, the Terminators won't.

Oh and the Terminators will lose up to 250 points, the Orks 48 points...

Dark Angel terminators are Fearless. Its a Deathwing thing. They cost a bit more than regualr terminators if I recall as well.

Yes, 15 pts more and they are fearless. Also i guess he hits the orkz w/ cyclone missle launchers a few times before they even engage hah.





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Idk , i saw a game where shootah boyz would down atleast 1 terminator everytime they shot, and sluggah boyz took down 1 when they used their pistols and charged.


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I figure when i have to fight the Dark Angel friend I'll use one of these 2 lists:

x1 Daemon Prince, MoS, Lash of Submission

x2 5 man plague marine squads w/ 2 plasma guns

x1 5 man plague marine squad w/ 2 plasma guns and 1 PF


x1 Daemon Prince, MoS, Lash of Submission

x2 Raptor Squads, 5 man, 2 meltaguns (or plasma maybe). Kite lighting claw terminators, and lash if they get too close.

x5 CSM, x1 meltaguns, x1 PF.

x5 CSM, x1meltaguns, x1.

Kiting around 2 5 man squads of lightning claw armed terminators sounds like fun, lashing 1 away ideally while 1 is focused down.

Also i just spoke to him.. he's getting lighting CLAW and the storm shield.. So he has a claw and a storm shield, which gives him the lightning claw, and the +3 invunerable save.

Yeah...lightning claw and storm shield aren't a viable option.

decoste007xt wrote:Also i just spoke to him.. he's getting lighting CLAW and the storm shield.. So he has a claw and a storm shield, which gives him the lightning claw, and the +3 invunerable save.

That is literally only possible on a Space Marine captain/master or a Wolf Guard in power armor in Terminator.

Kanluwen said: "Yeah...lightning claw and storm shield aren't a viable option."

That is right. The both of you need to get together, break out the codex, and hold his hand going over it. Something isn't clicking.


Bonus pseudo-related trivia: Dark Angel Company Veterans can take dual Lightning Claws and a Storm Shield. They would get the 3++ but cannot claim a bonus attack from the two claws. And just to be crystal clear: DW Terminators CANNOT do that.

Yeah.. he's a bit of an ass and will use anything he can, mis-interpretations. He'll likely get pissed off or mad that he can't do that. He said he was giving them the standard, which is true you get +1A from it... then using the lightning claw so he can reroll wounds.. and then the shield so he gets the save.

I just wanted some rock solid proof before i go over it, he absolutely loves terminators, and huge point cost units... I'm just going to lash him to death and pump him full of plasma.

Deathwing terminators are a max of 5 man squads. One squad in his army can have an apoth upgrade if he takes Belial. Same applies to the standard. The apoth grants the squad he is in feel no pain. The termies themselves can either have SB/PF(CF for more points) OR a pair of lightning claws OR TH/SH(this grants 3++ inv). One terminator in the squad can be upgraded to carry a heavy flamer OR assault cannon OR a cyclone missile launcher(CML are heavy2 thx 2 faq). The entire squad is fearless. He can also reserve however many DW squads he wants and have 1/2(rounded up) deepstrike in first turn, the rest will come in from reserve normally.

That should be all the relevant rules you need for DW squads.

Edit: To be very clear, where I listed an OR it means he can not take more than one option from that list on any single model. So no he can't have TLC's and a storm shield. Also the sergeant of the squad may be equipped with a power weapon and storm bolter.

Yes, I have the codex now, and i use army builder sometimes to check things out.

Thank you for all the help, I just want a fair game for me and my friends. If i have to be the ass to ruin his cheating tactic, i will be that ass


Also units that are in the imperial armory, can you use them in normal 5th ed games?

Only with permission from the person you plan to use them against.

What if theres a tournament ? or something? I mean.. is it legitimently legal/fair? For instance if i wanted to use the Deathclaw drop pods, he can just say " Nah i dont want you to use the imperial armory".

So its only going to be with agreement? you cant use armory units unless you the tournment/match states it ?

If it's a tournament, only if the tournament allows it. If you take a look at the cover of Imperial Armour books, you'll see a little icon in the lower right corner that says Warhammer 40k Expansion. It means it's got to be established that you're playing with IA as well as normal 40k, like planetstrike or cities of death.

decoste007xt wrote:What if theres a tournament ? or something? I mean.. is it legitimently legal/fair? For instance if i wanted to use the Deathclaw drop pods, he can just say " Nah i dont want you to use the imperial armory".

So its only going to be with agreement? you cant use armory units unless you the tournment/match states it ?

Yeah, tournaments are pretty much only the "core" GW rulebooks and seldom include Forgeworld Imperial Armor books. In friendly or pick up games, go for it. Most people in a pick up situation will be happy to play against new units.

decoste007xt wrote:Terminators with 3+ invunerable saves, and feel no pain. Apparently Dark Angel Terminators with lightning claws have 3+ invunerable saves, and the Apothecary lets them roll FNP on all unsaved wounds.

I did slight research and I thought Terminators had a +5 invuenrable, +4 with stormshields, Belial /HQ's ive seen have 3+ though. The apothecary rules i read states he cannot be failling back, pinned, or in CC. And it sounds like once per game turn ( meaning a full round) he can use his equipment ( i cant spell it) to let a model ignore an unsaved wound. Now my question is .. is this every unsaved wound? is it 1 model? what is it ? I run CSM, and I know my Plague Marines get FNP if i fail armor saves, and whatnot.. just not against instant death or AP1 weaponry.

Yes, Terminators have a 5++, but with storm shields the FAQ update puts them at 3++. The Apothecary now just gives the entire unit Feel No Pain, of course, it is useless against AP 1/2 or power weapons, but hey, you can't have everything!

decoste007xt wrote:Thunderhammers are 8S, Initiative 1, and lower your opponents initiative to 1 if you hit them.

Right!

decoste007xt wrote:Wouldnt Belial and Apothecary count as 2HQ's?

No, the apothecary is an upgraded terminator in one designated squad, just like the standard bearer, so choose the unit wisely.

decoste007xt wrote:Also the way they worded Belial being able to take terminators as troop choices and elites.. it sounded like that makes Terminators count as 1 Troop Choice & 1 Elite choice. IE you take 3 terminator squads, you go from 3 elites, 6 troop choices. To 0 elite choices, and 3 troop choices left over.

Common misread. Belial allows Deathwing squads to be counted as troops, like hormogants can allows a Tervigon to be a troops choice. So if you wanted, you could run 6 Deathwing squads as troops and three more as Elites. You just need to designate clearly which are which.


Hopefully some of this is wrong, as it terrifies me.. I dont know how I'm going to kill terminators with 3+ invulnerable saves, feel no pain, with lightning claws.

Sweet, again thank you all for the help. I feel like now I should get some pdf's of the current codex's just to read over so my opponents are playing fairly.

I know my own Codex well, and the Ork one cause me and a buddy do 2's games.. I suppose i should learn the way of the SM as its the most popular race it seems.




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Not to bitch, but is this correct?

Dreadclaw, 65 pts, can carry 10 models or 1 dreadnaught.

Droppod 35 pts, 12 man capacity or 1 dreadnaught,
locator beacons, Storm Bolter (or Deathwing Missle Launcher).

Mines almost twice as expensive, carries less, and has no eapons? Although i just read i can assault out of mine.. and it can move in the battlefields because Dreadclaws used to be "mini spaceships that carried troops?"

So this means i can land it, then pop it up and move if i wanted to? and assault out of it the moments it hits the dirt? This almost sounds worth it!