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Hey guys
Basically I was thinking about the Avatar of Khaine after repeatedly getting smashed by one whilst playing DOW retribution with my buddy , and I realized a few things the lore never clarifies about the Avatar or its role.
Basically I was curious as to what happens to the Avatar once its victorious in battle does the overpowering energy of Khaine eventually fry the host until the Avatar turns to dust ? or does it revert back to a shard of Khaine which can be used again ?. Or is it possible that the Avatar becomes a sort of Eldar figurehead leading the Eldar and providing war council ? (on that note can the Avatar even speak or communicate psychically Ive only seen him growl).
Secondly is the Avatar a uncontrollable engine of destruction (he is technically a daemon), or does he have ties of loyalty to the Eldar Im not really familiar with there lore so perhaps this has been explained, When an exarch is sacrificed to create the Avatar while its clear physically at least the exarch is utterly consumed but is it the exarch's mind and intent thats driving the avatar or is the will of Khaine ? (Is it possible that Khaine resents the Eldar for birthing Slaanesh and indirectly leading to his downfall ?).
Lastly I wanted to sort of Necro an idea I read in another thread and give my own opinion, basically someone suggested that by uniting the shards of Khaine scattered across the galaxy it would be possible to revive Khaine to glory, the main opposition to this was that Shards have been destroyed and lost over the years. However I imagine that the shards of Khaine aren't physically housing Khaine's spirit but rather a kind of conduit between his energy and the Eldar, with this in mind with each successive shard being destroyed could it be possible that the remaining shards are empowered as the energy is recycled / re-channeled (Im thinking along the lines of that old Jet Li movie the one). Especially if a shard is consumed when an Avatar is created thus making the shards a finite resource, could it be possible that when the final shard (or were down to one final shard) is used up Khaine could return ? perhaps for the Rhana dandra alongside Ynnead to duke it out with chaos ?. I imagine Khaine would need one hell of a host I doubt an exarch would cut it, perhaps the craftworld holding the final shard itself is utterly consumed to fuel his rebirth ?.
Anyways speculation and fluff appreciated as always
C-3

PS one thing I forget to add since the Eldar gods physically fought the Ctan in the materium, there not technically warp entities I was applying this to my theory of Khaine being reborn into the materium as opposed to the warp (also why a sacrifice would be needed).

AFAIK the 'host' burns out and the Avatar turns to stone or something...
He is the manifestation of Khaine. Khain doesn't like anyone that isn't Eldar... Khaine stomp...
I don't know Khaine's attitude to the Eldar concerning the birth of Slannesh, it appears he doesn't hold it against them so maybe he is cool with it...
Not sure on the last point but i don't think so...

Ok, I'm gunna try to not miss any of your questions here.

Once done, the avatar returns to the shard. He does not lead.

He has loyalty to the eldar. The eldar have loyalty to him. He won't attack the eldar of the craftworld that summoned him.

No one knows what actually happens to the exarch. It's believed that his is utterly consumed, but it's only speculation. No one actually knows what happens behind the closed doors.

Khaine cannot return. The shards are actually him, not just conduits.

Did i get it all?

purplefood wrote:AFAIK the 'host' burns out and the Avatar turns to stone or something...
He is the manifestation of Khaine. Khain doesn't like anyone that isn't Eldar... Khaine stomp...
I don't know Khaine's attitude to the Eldar concerning the birth of Slannesh, it appears he doesn't hold it against them so maybe he is cool with it...
Not sure on the last point but i don't think so...

Is there some kind of time limit to how long a host can sustain the Avatar ? or is it sorta like a bloodthirster as in if hes not in combat he'll start to power down ?.
Still Avatars of stone would make some cool ornaments for the craftworlds I imagine.

I'm not sure...
Maybe he runs on fighting.
Sothas got this better than me, they Avatar returns to the shard once it is done.

Sothas wrote:Ok, I'm gunna try to not miss any of your questions here.

Once done, the avatar returns to the shard. He does not lead.

He has loyalty to the eldar. The eldar have loyalty to him. He won't attack the eldar of the craftworld that summoned him.

No one knows what actually happens to the exarch. It's believed that his is utterly consumed, but it's only speculation. No one actually knows what happens behind the closed doors.

Khaine cannot return. The shards are actually him, not just conduits.

Did i get it all?

If the shards are him broken into little pieces then wouldn't uniting the pieces bring him back akin to a jigsaw puzzle ?, Im going with the assumption that Khaine alongside the rest of the Eldar pantheon of gods is an old one a being which is compromised of pure energy, how do you destroy energy doesnt it just take another form i.e return to another available shard.
Hehehe I imagine my optimism is leading to my bias as Id love to see a reborn khaine duke it out against everything Khorne can send after him in the materium.

Oh and one thing you missed is it the Exarch controlling the Avatar or is it the will of Khaine ?.

This thread brings back some memories

ChronoCupcake wrote:

If the shards are him broken into little pieces then wouldn't uniting the pieces bring him back akin to a jigsaw puzzle ?, Im going with the assumption that Khaine alongside the rest of the Eldar pantheon of gods is an old one a being which is compromised of pure energy, how do you destroy energy doesnt it just take another form i.e return to another available shard.
Hehehe I imagine my optimism is leading to my bias as Id love to see a reborn khaine duke it out against everything Khorne can send after him in the materium.

It's been said that Khaine can't return. Shards have been lost with the destruction of craftworlds. Also, I vaguely remember something about not all shards actually made it to the eldar and some are just plain old lost, but this I'm not sure about.

ChronoCupcake wrote:Oh and one thing you missed is it the Exarch controlling the Avatar or is it the will of Khaine ?.

That's part of the whole "no one knows" thing. No one has any idea what happens to the exarch. Is he killed, does he take over the body of the Avatar? No one has any idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That video was pretty awesome, and fairly accurate. The length of the ritual is different every time though. Also no one knows why. Sometimes it takes minutes, sometimes days.

according to Paths of the warrior the exarch keeps the avatar going for 500 years then another exarch has to be used

@ putrid one,

I read Path of the Warrior a while back, and I think what you mean is that an exarch is the Young King for 500 years, before he either retires back to his shrine, OR gets killed as the Avatar, the Avatar embodied lasts as long as the immediate battle, which could be a day, a week, a year if the craftworld itself is being attacked, as in the book.

sorry my bad

Sothas wrote:

ChronoCupcake wrote:

If the shards are him broken into little pieces then wouldn't uniting the pieces bring him back akin to a jigsaw puzzle ?, Im going with the assumption that Khaine alongside the rest of the Eldar pantheon of gods is an old one a being which is compromised of pure energy, how do you destroy energy doesnt it just take another form i.e return to another available shard.
Hehehe I imagine my optimism is leading to my bias as Id love to see a reborn khaine duke it out against everything Khorne can send after him in the materium.

It's been said that Khaine can't return. Shards have been lost with the destruction of craftworlds. Also, I vaguely remember something about not all shards actually made it to the eldar and some are just plain old lost, but this I'm not sure about.

I don't think it says anywhere that khaine can't return. It may be that the eldar don't have the knowledge or the ability to bring him back using the shards, but we just don't have all the info. Saying a god can't return is just asking for the next eldar codex to bring him back. Even if the shards contain his essence, destroying them may release parts of him back into the warp or w/e so they can reform. Even if some shards are lost they can still be found. Can't in 40k lore is a very strong word and not correct in this instance imo.

If the shards were to be reunited and Khaine reformed into a whole, Slaanesh would probably just pick up where s/he left off. And Khorne might get dragged into it again, causing Khaine to be shattered all over again.

The shattering happened for a very specific reason - it was part of a defense mechanism on Khaine's part to prevent him from being consumed by Slaanesh. There's no sense in reuniting the scattered pieces of Khaine if the original reason for Khaine's shattering is still present.

Eumerin wrote:If the shards were to be reunited and Khaine reformed into a whole, Slaanesh would probably just pick up where s/he left off. And Khorne might get dragged into it again, causing Khaine to be shattered all over again.

The shattering happened for a very specific reason - it was part of a defense mechanism on Khaine's part to prevent him from being consumed by Slaanesh. There's no sense in reuniting the scattered pieces of Khaine if the original reason for Khaine's shattering is still present.

I'm saying it is possible, not that it should happen or that reforming would be a good idea.

The Avatar doesn't have a host, he has a sacrifice.

When he's not up and murdering, he's an inanimate statue at the heart of the craftworld.

Ok so here's how the Avatar works.

In each Craftworld they have a shrine for Kaela Mensha Khaine.

In that shrine there is a throne in which the iron body of the Avatar. It's solid iron and cannot move.

Exarchs will eventually feel a heartbeat of the avatar (which can be before the Eldar even know there will be a fight) over time the heartbeat will become faster, and the Exarchs gather from their shrines on the Craftworld. One exarch male or female will be chosen for the ritual of the young king.

The "young king" will be stripped naked and the others will cut their runes of their respective aspects (striking scorpions etc.) into the young kings skin and then the young king walks into the avatars shrine, the doors close and as the Avatar comes to life the young king is consumed/burnt as a sacrifice.

This is a final peace for the Exarch as they cannot turn away from violence, they are forced to live in their shrines so they dont harm other Eldar. They are made up of many souls from previous the Exarchs who wore the armour, all tied to one living body they cannot join the infinity circiut like other Eldar could because their souls are too aggressive and violent. The other way they can find peace is being consumed by a pheonix lords armour.

Once the Avatar has awakened its iron body is moltern metal and it bursts out of the chambers and marches to war.

Avatars psychically influence the Eldar around them making them angry and hateful, ready for war. They then move through the webway or by ship to where the battle is fought.

After the battle the avatar takes its place back in the throne and rehardens into the iron statue again.

There's no fluff on what happens to an Avatar that's beaten in battle. I would guess it eventually reforms on in its shrine but cant say for sure. We know they have been betten in the fluff as Fulgrim strangles one to death (Ridiculous).

An Avatar can also be possessed by daemons if not awakened via the ritual, Ail'Slath'Sleresh a greater daemon of slannesh while invading Kher-Ys accidently woke the avatar and in the fight the Daemon took over its shell.

 obsidianaura wrote:
Ok so here's how the Avatar works.

In each Craftworld they have a shrine for Kaela Mensha Khaine.

In that shrine there is a throne in which the iron body of the Avatar. It's solid iron and cannot move.

Exarchs will eventually feel a heartbeat of the avatar (which can be before the Eldar even know there will be a fight) over time the heartbeat will become faster, and the Exarchs gather from their shrines on the Craftworld. One exarch male or female will be chosen for the ritual of the young king.

The "young king" will be stripped naked and the others will cut their runes of their respective aspects (striking scorpions etc.) into the young kings skin and then the young king walks into the avatars shrine, the doors close and as the Avatar comes to life the young king is consumed/burnt as a sacrifice.

This is a final peace for the Exarch as they cannot turn away from violence, they are forced to live in their shrines so they dont harm other Eldar. They are made up of many souls from previous the Exarchs who wore the armour, all tied to one living body they cannot join the infinity circiut like other Eldar could because their souls are too aggressive and violent. The other way they can find peace is being consumed by a pheonix lords armour.

Once the Avatar has awakened its iron body is moltern metal and it bursts out of the chambers and marches to war.

Avatars psychically influence the Eldar around them making them angry and hateful, ready for war. They then move through the webway or by ship to where the battle is fought.

After the battle the avatar takes its place back in the throne and rehardens into the iron statue again.

There's no fluff on what happens to an Avatar that's beaten in battle. I would guess it eventually reforms on in its shrine but cant say for sure. We know they have been betten in the fluff as Fulgrim strangles one to death (Ridiculous).

An Avatar can also be possessed by daemons if not awakened via the ritual, Ail'Slath'Sleresh a greater daemon of slannesh while invading Kher-Ys accidently woke the avatar and in the fight the Daemon took over its shell.

This sounds about spot on. The only thing that I would like to comment on is I have always believed that the Avatar of Khaine is not the same as the Shard of Khaine. The Shard is in the shrine, along with a "Avatar" for Khaine to manifest into, which would be the Iron Body crafted to resemble Khaine. The sacrifice is what allows Khaine's power to be transferred or link from the Shard to the Avatar. Khaine would than march to war in the Avatar, having a link between the Shard and the Avatar itself. This means that once the Avatar is felled in combat the link between Shard and Avatar is broken. To summon a new one, get another Iron Body and do the sacrifice again.

This one was a bit too old to revive at this point, the conversation, with the info available for now, has run its course.

Thanks for understanding -

MT11