Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Here's the scenario:

My IG Devil Dog fires its melta cannon at a target 12" away (therefore, melta range). It then scatters a further inch away. Is it still in melta range?

It's a little tricky. If you take the melta special rule as a measure from the weapon to the vehicle in question, then the scatter doesn't matter and you'll get the extra D6.

If you take it as a measure to the center of the the blast, then no, as the melta weapon is now more than half the maximum distance from the target.

I'd lean more to the yes side, as that seems to be how the rule is worded.

... actually this came up before ...
The only time you measure range with blasts is when you place them. If you place the blast within melta range then you get the +D6 pen, if not you don't.

The blast template could scatter into or out of melta range but it doesn't matter.

Tri wrote:... actually this came up before ...
The only time you measure range with blasts is when you place them. If you place the blast within melta range then you get the +D6 pen, if not you don't.

The blast template could scatter into or out of melta range but it doesn't matter.

I completely disagree. you only measure ranges when required by the rules. In the case of Melta you have to know if the 'vehicle' you are rolling penetration against is at half range or less of the weapon...there is absolutely NO indication that the position of the blast matters whatsoever concerning the Melta rule.

So you place the blast, check for normal range of the weapon, see where it scatters, then if it ends up over a vehicle per the Melta rules 'when rolling to penetrate' the vehicle you would then have to check to see if the vehicle is within half range of the weapon or not. If the vehicle is, then you get the Melta bonus, if it isn't then you don't get the melta bonus.


And again, this all hinges upon the fact that the Melta rule (which is what matters here) says that what matters is whether the VEHICLE Is within half range of the weapon. So regardless of what weapon type you are firing, what matters is what the range to the vehicle you're rolling the penetration against is.

So it is entirely possible to have a blast clipping two vehicles, one further away than the other and against one vehicle you'll get the melta bonus (as it is within half range of the weapon) and the other vehicle will not get the bonus (as it is beyond half range of the weapon).

Yak - except you check range at step 2, when you place the blast down. Nothing after that allows you to check range again.


If the blast is within 12" when you place it, you gain the melta effect no matter how far away it scatters.

My friends and I ran into this not all too long ago. Rulebook pg 32 states for Melta weapons "They roll an extra D6 when rolling to penetrate a vehicle's armor value at half range or less. If the weapon is more than half it's maximum distance away, a single D6 is rolled as normal."

We understood this as the actual distance between the target(vehicle) and the firer(weapon) mattered. So if the blast scatters to a vehicle that is more than 12" away, more than half the distance of the stated range of the weapon, then it would not benefit from the melta rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yak - except you check range at step 2, when you place the blast down. Nothing after that allows you to check range again.


If the blast is within 12" when you place it, you gain the melta effect no matter how far away it scatters.

Incorrect, the Melta rules tell us to see if the VEHICLE is within half range when rolling for penetration. That's permission to check range right there.

Or are you going to say that when a rule says 'all models within X distance are affected' we're not allowed to measure there because it doesn't specifically tell us to?


You can't have it both ways, you can't say that the rules specify that range is only checked at one place and then ignore that the melta rules ONLY care about range to the vehicle not to any blast position.

So if you want to play that way you have to say that this Melta weapon cannot possibly get the bonus as the weapon never allows you to check range to the vehicle, just to the blast, and the only thing Melta cares about is range to the vehicle.


So again:

1) The Melta rule only cares about range to the vehicle that is being penetrated.
2) The Melta rule tells you when to check range for the bonus (when rolling to penetrate).
3) The rules specify that you are not allowed to check range except when the rules call for it, and anything that would require range to be determined would be calling for range to be checked.

Therefore, you ARE allowed to check range to the vehicle you are rolling penetration against in order to determine if it is within half range of the weapon or not.

In context distance == range, you need to read both sentences together to get that though.

You ONLY check range ONCE - you NEVER check range again after a blast scatters, so ONLY where you place the blast matters for this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:In context distance == range, you need to read both sentences together to get that though.

You ONLY check range ONCE - you NEVER check range again after a blast scatters, so ONLY where you place the blast matters for this.

Then the Melta rule never works for this weapon as the Melta rule only cares about whether the vehicle being penetrated is within half range or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Furthermore,

The Devildog also has a Heavy Bolter. Let's say you fire the Heavy Bolter along with the blast at a tank.

You check range to the tank and find that it is within half range of the Melta weapon, although when you check range to where you placed the blast itself you find that the blast is beyond the half range of the Melta.

Now, the blast doesn't scatter and hits the vehicle.

What happens?

You KNOW the range to the vehicle is under half range of the weapon (because you measured for the Heavy Bolter). Are you still going to try to argue that the blast wouldn't get the melta bonus in this case?

By WHAT BASIS are you glossing over the Melta rules to assume that they ever care about the position of the blast, when there is absolutely nothing to indicate that they do?

"Then the Melta rule never works for this weapon as the Melta rule only cares about whether the vehicle being penetrated is within half range or not. "

???

You check range to the vehicle. You find out the vehicle is under half range (step two) - melta rule will now trigger

You then place the blast marker, and as per the blast weapon rules you again check range to the blast (the replacement for step 3 in the shooting rules) - but this isnt the range to the vehicle, but the range to the blast, so doesnt matter for Melta.

You then roll scatter, etc, and - no matter what - as long as you end up hitting a vehicle you will roll the extra dice.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Then the Melta rule never works for this weapon as the Melta rule only cares about whether the vehicle being penetrated is within half range or not. "

???

You check range to the vehicle. You find out the vehicle is under half range (step two) - melta rule will now trigger

You then place the blast marker, and as per the blast weapon rules you again check range to the blast (the replacement for step 3 in the shooting rules) - but this isnt the range to the vehicle, but the range to the blast, so doesnt matter for Melta.

You then roll scatter, etc, and - no matter what - as long as you end up hitting a vehicle you will roll the extra dice.

So what happens if the blast scatters off and hits a different vehicle?

yakface wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Then the Melta rule never works for this weapon as the Melta rule only cares about whether the vehicle being penetrated is within half range or not. "

???

You check range to the vehicle. You find out the vehicle is under half range (step two) - melta rule will now trigger

You then place the blast marker, and as per the blast weapon rules you again check range to the blast (the replacement for step 3 in the shooting rules) - but this isnt the range to the vehicle, but the range to the blast, so doesnt matter for Melta.

You then roll scatter, etc, and - no matter what - as long as you end up hitting a vehicle you will roll the extra dice.

So what happens if the blast scatters off and hits a different vehicle?

well doesn't matter it was in melta range when it fired ... of course it works the other way if it scattered onto a model after being fired out of melta range it also wouldn't gain melta.

Its same way that a normal blast can land out of range (or inside minimum range) and still count.

Tri wrote: well doesn't matter it was in melta range when it fired ... of course it works the other way if it scattered onto a model after being fired out of melta range it also wouldn't gain melta.

Its same way that a normal blast can land out of range (or inside minimum range) and still count.

Again, nothing you've posted shows how you've come to that conclusion by what the rules say. The Melta rules only care about the range to the vehicle being penetrated, they do not care about where the blast marker is located.

Why wouldn't you check to see if the vehicle is within half range when you roll for penetration (when the melta rule may or may not give you +d6)? You check range when firing the weapon initially, but you'd also have to check range for any relevant special rules when the effect occurs...

Yak - you dont check range after step 2 and replacement step 3. That's why