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I'm in a Badab War campaign at my local store and need some feedback on a mostly anti-MEQ list. There are ten MEQ players (five loyalist and five cessionists) in the campaign but I need to have at least some assaulty stuff for when I face the two or three non-MEQ players. I realize that I'm starting at a disadvantage given the special characters that the MEQ guys can take but when Forge World gives you a lemon, you sit back and suck it, I guess.

Pts Unit
------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
135 | Archon (Agoniser, Blaster, Combat Drugs, Shadow Field) - Deployed with Incubi

175 | Lelith Hesperax - Deployed with Wyches

193 | Incubi x3, Klaivex (Onslaught), Venom (Splinter Cannons x2)

205 | Kabalite Trueborn x5 (Blaster x4, Splinter Cannon x1), Venom (Splinter Cannons x2)

205 | Kabalite Trueborn x5 (Blaster x4, Splinter Cannon x1), Venom (Splinter Cannons x2)

260 | Kabalite Warriors x9 (Blaster, Splinter Cannon), Sybarite (Agoniser, Blast Pistol, Phantasm Grenade Launcher), Raider (Flickerfield, Night Shields)

260 | Kabalite Warriors x9 (Blaster, Splinter Cannon), Sybarite (Agoniser, Blast Pistol, Phantasm Grenade Launcher), Raider (Flickerfield, Night Shields)

225 | Wyches x8 (Razorflails), Hekatrix (Agonizer, Blast Pistol), Raider (Flickerfield, Night Shields)

091 | Reavers (Blaster, Grav-talon)

125 | Ravager (Flickerfield, Night Shields)

125 | Ravager (Flickerfield, Night Shields)

Total: 1999 points

So, I've got two heavy hitting assault units in the Archon/Incubi and Lelith/Wyches, two dedicated MEQ killers in the Trueborn, fire support/objective grabbing with the Warriors, and two tank hunters with the Ravagers which have the benefit of switching to anti-MEQ should I face a force with few tanks. Would it be worth trying to fit Splinter Racks into the Warriors' Raiders? I suppose I could drop a Wych or two if it would be worthwhile.

Needless to say, I'm hoping that some of you will spot any vulnerabilities and offer suggestions for improvement. An alternative I'm sort of toying with is to drop the Archon and Incubi in favor of The Duke (attached to a Warrior unit) and upgrade the Wyches to Bloodbrides since that would give me three Razorflails an Agoniser and Lelith for hot CC loving. The problem is that with only one unit in the list using combat drugs it might not be worth doing. Another alternative would be to go with a Hemi and Wracks but I don't like that unless I face the one Grey Knights player. Popping a Crucible of Malediction in the middle of that army would be comedy gold worthy of Monty Python. Silly psycher Stormravens.

C'mon, guys. I know some of you play DE and have gone up against MEQ. What are your ideas on this list?

I like it a lot but if your facing MEQ I would take disintergrators on one ravager.

I found a way you can get spliner racks, drop the Splinter Cannon in the warrior unit as you need ten men to use it

To be honest I don't really like much in the list starting from the top:

Archon - I actually like him though would be tempted with a blast pistol or drop it all together to get max attacks. Use other units to pop transports for him and retinue.

Lelith - Meh not sure she's needed as well as the Archon.

Incubi - nice don't really need klaivex though

Trueborn - why on earth have you got a 5th guy sucking up points with a splinter cannon? Dump him in each squad. DE can't afford to waste points. Otherwise good

Warriors - total waste of points with your config. DE can't afford to waste points and you're chucking tonnes out of the window. You don't need 10 guys when 5 do the same job. Sybarites are pointless in a unit that needs to avoid combat. Night shields maqke Raiders too expensive for an AV10 open topped vehicle. Cut these down to 4 squads of 5 warriors with blasters in Venoms with duel splinter cannons. You still have 4 Darklight shots, are 20 points cheaper and have 48 Poision shots compared to 38 (with 12", just 26 shots if you remain still at 24") and have longer range on the poision and can target 4 units and give your open twice as many targets to deal with.

Wyches - Again dump the blast pistol and nightshields and save yourself 25 points. Use those to take the manditory haywire grenades.

Reavers - 91 points of nothing. If you slow down to shot that blaster you are dead and you've not a very good chance of doing any damage with it and have wasted 91 points. Likewise if you get into combat you're dead and have again thrown away 91 points for little to no gain. If you're taking then the only upgrade they need is cluster caltrops. Have them fly around doing damage and causing a distraction.

Ravagers - Why nightshields? They give little to no benefit to the Ravager. You need to be within 36" and most of whats firing back has a 48" range the nigt shields mean guess what that's 42" and still very much in range. Thats another 20 points saved.

Trim all this fat and you can take a 3rd Ravager and your list would look far more efficient and do more damage.

I agree with everything listed above. I would also take Lelith or the Archon, not both. I would drop Lelith and take a Haemonculi with liquifier and a crucible for the wyches to turn them into a tarpit unit, because they can take the pain token with them. Also, get Haywire grenades for them. You will, absolutely, get stuck in with a dread from time to time and haywire is your only way out alive. Not to mention, you can wreak havoc on stationary IG battletanks with them. Night shields blow, drop em. The reavers are a garbage, useless, point sink, drop em. Buy a third Ravager. These should be standard in every game over 1000 points, without a doubt. Personally, I think there's only one real way to take warriors. That's 5 dudes with a blaster, in a venom with two cannons on it. It does everything your current config does, but better. And, warriors should never be in cc. They will lose far to fast for your current config.

135 | Archon (Agoniser, Blaster, Combat Drugs, Shadow Field) - Deployed with Incubi

I'd drop the blaster. This unit needs to hit CC as fast as possible. I'd consider a Phantasm Gernade Launcher so that you can hit units sitting in cover.

175 | Lelith Hesperax - Deployed with Wyches

Lelith is crap. Drop her and grab a Haemonculus with Liquifier, Shattershard, and Venom Blade to go with the Wyches. Use the other points elsewhere.

193 | Incubi x3, Klaivex (Onslaught), Venom (Splinter Cannons x2)

I don't think the Klaivex is worth it. I'd drop him and grab another Incubi.

205 | Kabalite Trueborn x5 (Blaster x4, Splinter Cannon x1), Venom (Splinter Cannons x2)

205 | Kabalite Trueborn x5 (Blaster x4, Splinter Cannon x1), Venom (Splinter Cannons x2)

4 Blaster is good. Stop there. There is no need for the Splinter Cannon.

260 | Kabalite Warriors x9 (Blaster, Splinter Cannon), Sybarite (Agoniser, Blast Pistol, Phantasm Grenade Launcher), Raider (Flickerfield, Night Shields)

260 | Kabalite Warriors x9 (Blaster, Splinter Cannon), Sybarite (Agoniser, Blast Pistol, Phantasm Grenade Launcher), Raider (Flickerfield, Night Shields)

I don't get the plan here. Warriors aren't good in CC. Drop the Sybrite and the boat load of gear. I like Warriors in squads of 5 with Blaster in Venoms. If you are set on 10 then I suppose I'd take the blaster and cannon. Maybe a naked Sybarite for leadership. I'd drop the Night Shields as well.

225 | Wyches x8 (Razorflails), Hekatrix (Agonizer, Blast Pistol), Raider (Flickerfield, Night Shields)

I don't particularly think that Wytch weapons are worth it. From my experience they are underwhelming. The blast pistol is a waste on the Hekatrix. Again, I don't like Night Shields.

091 | Reavers (Blaster, Grav-talon)

I don't have lots of experience with this unit. They seem pretty bad to me but if you have a plan they might be worth it. Maybe cluster caltrops?

125 | Ravager (Flickerfield, Night Shields)

125 | Ravager (Flickerfield, Night Shields)

There needs to be a third here. Drop the Night Shields.

The good news is that by dropping Lelith and the crazy amounts of extra wargear you can grab some things that actually help. You should be able to Grab a Haemy and another Ravager.

Archon: Yea, I see what you guys mean about the blaster. I'll drop it when I redo the list. I don't usually need to worry about assaulting into cover against MEQ but I'll see if I can work in the PGL.

Lelith: In the game I played with a much worse list, she was the only bright spot. The squad of wyches she was with, not so much. I like the idea of the Haemi with the wyches due to the initial pain token they get. Should make them better. I'll make the swap.

Incubi: Okay, I'll drop the klavix.

Trueborn: No love for the extra splinter cannon? I guess with two on the venom it isn't absolutely necessary. Still, it's more MEQ-killing shots on the table. I'll think about it, maybe talk it over with some people and see if the consensus holds.

Warriors: I originally thought to put the Sybarite there in case they wound up in CC but it isn't the most effective model in a fire team. I don't have enough Venoms available to me to run four squads so I'll try the splinter racks and see if that is better or not. @DPBellathrom... there are ten in those squads - nine warriors and one sybarite.

Wyches: Razorflails seem to be the upgrade to use since they reroll hit and wounds. It's not much but it forces a few extra armor saves so it seems like a useful upgrade. On reflection, I do agree that the blast pistol probably isn't worth it. I orginally took it for it's AP in the hopes of getting a shot off before combat. I think dropping it is probably the right thing to do. I originally had haywire grenades but after having a vehicle explode and wipe out half my squad, I thought it better to leave the vehicle hunting to the Trueborn. I'll put them back in though because I can see situations where there won't be any dark lances/blasters able to stop a dread in time.

I'm willing to drop the Reavers but they look so cool. Ah well. Is there a fast attack choice that would work in an anti-MEQ list?

Ravagers: Get a third. Got it. As for the nightshields, I understand that there is plenty of 48" stuff available to Marines but in MEQ there's tons of bolters and I was thinking about mitigating an entire squad's worth of shooting. Thing is that with so much MEQ in the campaign, I expect to see more plasma and power weapons than lascannons. I'll probably play one battle with them and one without and see if they do anything.

Thanks for the feedback, guys. It's appreciated.

It's not that the splinter cannon is no good. Its that the trueborn squad is built to be hunting vehicles. In this case, those splinter cannon shots are wasted.

Fast attack is usually best avoided unless youve already filled your troop and elite and heavy support slots... That being said your entire army is flying around in open topped skimmers. Its pretty darn fast.

Okay, here's what I've got so far:

Pts Unit
------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
145 | Archon (Agoniser, Combat Drugs, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Shadow Field) - Deployed with Incubi

080 | Haemonculus (Liquifier Gun, Shattershard, Venom Blade) - Deployed with Wyches

153 | Incubi x4, Venom (Splinter Cannons x2)

173 | Kabalite Trueborn x4 (Blaster x4), Venom (Splinter Cannons x2)

173 | Kabalite Trueborn x4 (Blaster x4), Venom (Splinter Cannons x2)

195 | Kabalite Warriors x10 (Blaster, Splinter Cannon), Raider (Flickerfield)

195 | Kabalite Warriors x10 (Blaster, Splinter Cannon), Raider (Flickerfield)

208 | Wyches x8 (Haywire Grenades, Razorflails), Hekatrix (Agonizer), Raider (Flickerfield)

125 | Ravager (Flickerfield)

125 | Ravager (Flickerfield)

125 | Ravager (Flickerfield)

Total: 1667 points

Now how to fill out the remaining 333 points? I'm pretty much limited to Fast Attack and Troop choices. I think I'd like to take another Haemi with a Crucible of Malediction because we've got a couple of Grey Knight players and I'd like to see how effective a nuke that is. What about Wracks? I can take them as troops with the Haemi, so how well do they work against MEQ? Should I make the Haemi I've taken with the Wyches an Ancient? Would Urien be worth taking instead of the generic Haemi?

Urien would be pretty useless in this army. His best skill is giving pain tokens to units of wracks and grotesques. You have neither, and adding one unit of wracks will still not utilize that ability very well. Wracks can be decent against MEQ with the poison weapons and all, but it might be a good idea to give them a haemie so they could reroll wounds on T4 units. But then you should ask yourself, why would you want wracks over more wyches.

wow...you have some experience...don't you?

I went with two units of Scourges as my FA slot, kitting them out with two Dark Lances in each unit. Plan is to move them to cover and then snipe. We'll see if that works out at all. I also upgraded the Haemi to an Ancient for better stats in CC and gave the Archan a Soul Trap mainly because I had 10 points left to use and there are a fair number of IC's running around in this campaign.

Pts Unit
------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
155 | Archon (Agoniser, Combat Drugs, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Shadow Field, Soul Trap) - Deployed with Incubi

110 | Haemonculus Ancient (Liquifier Gun, Shattershard, Venom Blade) - Deployed with Wyches

153 | Incubi x4, Venom (Splinter Cannons x2)

173 | Kabalite Trueborn x4 (Blaster x4), Venom (Splinter Cannons x2)

173 | Kabalite Trueborn x4 (Blaster x4), Venom (Splinter Cannons x2)

195 | Kabalite Warriors x10 (Blaster, Splinter Cannon), Raider (Flickerfield, Splinter Racks)

195 | Kabalite Warriors x10 (Blaster, Splinter Cannon), Raider (Flickerfield, Splinter Racks)

208 | Wyches x8 (Haywire Grenades, Razorflails), Hekatrix (Agonizer), Raider (Flickerfield)

140 | Scourges x5 (Dark Lances x2)

140 | Scourges x5 (Dark Lances x2)

125 | Ravager (Flickerfield)

125 | Ravager (Flickerfield)

125 | Ravager (Flickerfield)

Total: 1997 points

why would you want wracks over more wyches.

I' personally guess because they are better as they do far more damage and take less damage...

FlingitNow wrote:

why would you want wracks over more wyches.

I' personally guess because they are better as they do far more damage and take less damage...

I think this all depends on how you use them. I personally like wyches because of haywire grenades, fleet, and dodge.
Generally I am looking at a tradeoff between FNP T4 and 2 liquifiers vs fleet dodge haywire grenades and an agonizer.

For that alpha strike, wyches I believe are more reliable. I did not mean to say that wracks are in all ways inferior.

I think this all depends on how you use them. I personally like wyches because of haywire grenades, fleet, and dodge.
Generally I am looking at a tradeoff between FNP T4 and 2 liquifiers vs fleet dodge haywire grenades and an agonizer.

For that alpha strike, wyches I believe are more reliable. I did not mean to say that wracks are in all ways inferior.

I wouldn't say Wyches help with alphastrikes. They are a tarpit unit and a way of dealing with walkers and deathstars. Wracks are a hitty unit. But niether are alphatrsiking units as the DE are too slow an army with alphastrike with assault units.