Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In a recent game, a psyker (Mephiston, if it matters) was in close combat with a unit of wyches and down to his last wound.

He rolled a 12 for his psychic check and died due to Perils of the Warp.

Does this generate a pain token for the wyches?

I'd say no.

They didn't kill him. He killed himself.

The Dark Eldar unit has to destroy the enemy non-vehicle unit to gain a pain token. Running them off the field or watching while they explode themselves doesn't count, though they would probably still consider it good entertainment

Yes it would generate a pain token, also it would count as a casualty for CC resolution.

sidstall wrote:Yes it would generate a pain token, also it would count as a casualty for CC resolution.

Wrong on both accounts, actually.

The DE unit did not kill them, Mephiston killed himself. Just because they were in combat and the target unit died, does not mean tehy CAUSED that death. A vehicle exploding nearby could also kill mephi, for example

Secondly, the wound was not caused by close combat attacks, and therefore cannot count for Combat res. Again, just because a wound was caused in combat does not necessarily mean it coutns for combat resolution.

It's not quite that simple, though.

The FAQ specifies that if a vehicle explosion kills a unit, It DOES generate a pain token for the unit that exploded the vehicle.

They've set a rather fuzzy line as to what constitutes "destroying" an enemy unit, one that could really use some clarification.

The vehicle exploding is a bad example because the eldar caused the vehicle to explode and kill osme guys. Perrils I'm afraid has nothing to do with the witches and thus they do not get ap ain token.

Ordznik wrote:It's not quite that simple, though.

The FAQ specifies that if a vehicle explosion kills a unit, It DOES generate a pain token for the unit that exploded the vehicle.

They've set a rather fuzzy line as to what constitutes "destroying" an enemy unit, one that could really use some clarification.

Yes, it is.

Did the Witch unit, in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM, actually kill Mephy? No, he killed himself.

No pain token.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Ordznik wrote:It's not quite that simple, though.

The FAQ specifies that if a vehicle explosion kills a unit, It DOES generate a pain token for the unit that exploded the vehicle.

They've set a rather fuzzy line as to what constitutes "destroying" an enemy unit, one that could really use some clarification.

Yes, it is.

Did the Witch unit, in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM, actually kill Mephy? No, he killed himself.

No pain token.

I'm with Ordznik, there is a bit of gray with the FAQ, but what would a GW game be without it.

The reason Mephy was killed is he took a PoW, he did that because he was in CC with the witches. So yes, in a way the witches did kill him, he's probably not casting STR 10 to open salsa jars.

Just because he elected to cast a power to boost his strength (why? wyches are t 3 anyway...) and accidentally was sucked into the warp doesn't mean that the wyches killed him though

He killed himself, coincidentally he was in combat with the wyches, but he didn't die from enemy action.

sidstall wrote:
The reason Mephy was killed is he took a PoW, he did that because he was in CC with the witches. So yes, in a way the witches did kill him, he's probably not casting STR 10 to open salsa jars.

The owning player chose to cast a spell. That decision is intervening and superceding within the chain of events that caused the casualty.

Now if for some reason there is a way to force a psychic test and that test is failed, resulting in a casualty, then a pain token would be generated.

Meph can cast spell(s) out of combat and die from them however, like Wings.

This is a very grey area. My gut instinct is to say it doesn't count for a token, or a combat resolution wound.

The DE had nothing to do with it, the Wyches didnt cause his death, therefore no Pain Token.

If they used something that cause him to suffer a perils or forced him to make a psycher test then yes it would generate a token. If the BA player chooses to use a psycher ability and Mephiston kills himself then no token. Just like if I were to fire a vindicators main gun and it scatters badly and kills my own troops who were engaged with wyches it shouldn't generate a token.

Magnalon wrote:This is a very grey area. My gut instinct is to say it doesn't count for a token, or a combat resolution wound.

A wound suffered from perils of the warp doesn't count towards combat resolution. Refer to page 39 under 'Determine Assault Results', "To decide who has won the combat, total up the number of unsaved wounds inflicted by each side on their opponents."

A perils of the warp wound wasn't inflicted by the enemy, therefore it does not count.

I would also say it doesn't grant a pain token for the same reason, it wasn't a wound inflicted by the dark eldar.

Think of it this way, 2 squads get into CC with the IC.

Even if the attacks happen simultaneously, each squad will roll separately for attacks and resolution. Squad 1 attacks, and fails to deliver the final wound. Squad 2 attacks and delivers the final wound. Do both squads get a pain token? As I understand it, no, only the squad that removed the final wound gets the token.

By that logic, the squad that Mephiston was fighting did not deliver the final wound. A different squad (Mephiston himself) did so. Mephiston does not get the PfP rule, so the token that would have been generated would go to one that does not gain it, therefore, no token is awarded.

time wizard wrote:

Magnalon wrote:This is a very grey area. My gut instinct is to say it doesn't count for a token, or a combat resolution wound.

A wound suffered from perils of the warp doesn't count towards combat resolution. Refer to page 39 under 'Determine Assault Results', "To decide who has won the combat, total up the number of unsaved wounds inflicted by each side on their opponents."

A perils of the warp wound wasn't inflicted by the enemy, therefore it does not count.

I would also say it doesn't grant a pain token for the same reason, it wasn't a wound inflicted by the dark eldar.

If you re-read my post, I actually agree with you

hearne wrote:Think of it this way, 2 squads get into CC with the IC.

Even if the attacks happen simultaneously, each squad will roll separately for attacks and resolution. Squad 1 attacks, and fails to deliver the final wound. Squad 2 attacks and delivers the final wound. Do both squads get a pain token? As I understand it, no, only the squad that removed the final wound gets the token.

That actually is incorrect. The Dark Eldar Codex 'Power from Pain' entry on page 25 says that you might have several unit involved in a close combat with a unit that gets destroyed. In this case, you randomly assign the pain token among the units that were in the combat, not necessarily the one that caused the final wound.

time wizard wrote:

hearne wrote:Think of it this way, 2 squads get into CC with the IC.

Even if the attacks happen simultaneously, each squad will roll separately for attacks and resolution. Squad 1 attacks, and fails to deliver the final wound. Squad 2 attacks and delivers the final wound. Do both squads get a pain token? As I understand it, no, only the squad that removed the final wound gets the token.

That actually is incorrect. The Dark Eldar Codex 'Power from Pain' entry on page 25 says that you might have several unit involved in a close combat with a unit that gets destroyed. In this case, you randomly assign the pain token among the units that were in the combat, not necessarily the one that caused the final wound.

I missed that.. it's good to know.

Magnalon wrote:

time wizard wrote:

Magnalon wrote:This is a very grey area. My gut instinct is to say it doesn't count for a token, or a combat resolution wound.

A wound suffered from perils of the warp doesn't count towards combat resolution. Refer to page 39 under 'Determine Assault Results', "To decide who has won the combat, total up the number of unsaved wounds inflicted by each side on their opponents."

A perils of the warp wound wasn't inflicted by the enemy, therefore it does not count.

I would also say it doesn't grant a pain token for the same reason, it wasn't a wound inflicted by the dark eldar.

If you re-read my post, I actually agree with you

I was agreeing with you too!
Just wanted to cite the rule that backed both of us up.

Ascalam wrote:Just because he elected to cast a power to boost his strength (why? wyches are t 3 anyway...) and accidentally was sucked into the warp doesn't mean that the wyches killed him though

He killed himself, coincidentally he was in combat with the wyches, but he didn't die from enemy action.

Off topic, but he was actually trying to use the power that gives him preferred enemy.

I was responding to this

'The reason Mephy was killed is he took a PoW, he did that because he was in CC with the witches. So yes, in a way the witches did kill him, he's probably not casting STR 10 to open salsa jars.'

Using it for preferred enemy is a lot less WTF