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I posted this on someone's thread to show an example of making a list designed around a tactic. I think I made a pretty good list so wanted to share to see if it would give someone else some ideas. I feel it can easily be further refined, but I think the core is there. Tactics are discussed on the bottom.

CCS - 310pts
Creed
Kell
plasmagun
Lascannon
Astropath
Camo Cloaks

PCS -200pts (Out-flanking)
Al'Rahem
4x Meltaguns
Krak grenades
Chimera (Hull HF, Turret ML)

PIS - 115pts (Out-flanking)
Meltagun
Chimera (Hull HF, Turret ML)

PIS - 115pts (Out-flanking)
Meltagun
Chimera (Hull HF, Turret ML)

Special Weapon Squad - 65pts (In Vendetta, Out-flanking)
3x Meltaguns

Vets - 160pts
3x Melta
Sentries
Grenadiers

Vets - 160pts
3x Melta
Sentries
Grenadiers

PCS - 50pts
4x Flamers

PIS - 70pts (blobbed)
Meltagun
Auto-Cannon

PIS - 70pts (blobbed)
Meltagun
Auto-Cannon

HWS - 75pts
3x Auto-Cannons

HWS - 75pts
3x Auto-Cannons

HWS - 75pts
3x Auto-Cannons

2x Scout Sentnials squad - 80pts (Out-flanking)
Auto-Cannon

2x Scout Sentnials squad - 80pts (Out-flanking)
Auto-Cannon

Vendetta - 130pts (Out-Flanking)

Leman Russ Vanquisher - 170pts (Out-flanking via Creed)
Lascannon

= 2000pts

Blob squad, Heavy Weapon squads, and the Vets all hang back sitting in cover and shoot at the enemy long range to draw them in. They also can be within 12" of Creed if needed for the Regimental Standard's effect for moral purposes. With Kell I am using Creed's LD 10 with a 24" range for Bring it Down!, so I should be issuing 4 Orders a turn to these units to pour as much fire into the enemy as possible. As the Enemy advances the out-flanking units come on and get side/rear shots on the enemy Mech and/or attack rear heavy weapon units. Creed, Al'Rahem and the Astropath are the key units that the list is built around, with out-flanking units being the key tactic. Classic pincer/ hammer and anvil tactics being used.

Al'Rahem's platoon all have to be out-flanking. His platoon consists of a PSC, PISx2, and a SWS. This means the Vendetta /has/ to out-flank if the squad is mounted in it. I wouldn't use Scout Sentinals personally, but they fit with the theme. The Grenadiers on the Vets are just anti-flamer protection, but if they were scarpped I would actually look at adding Pask to the Vanquisher and using extra points to upgrade the Vets from Meltaguns to Plasmaguns. Another option would be to take the 60pts and ditch the Krak from Al'Rahem's unit and get Guardsman Marbro. I know this leaves me with 1 lascannon for long-range anti-AV 12+ on turn 1, but it is BS4 and worse comes to worse I use BiD! on it to make it twin-linked. I still have plenty of melta once they get closer.

Enjoy!

Creed is cool but Kell is not. Kell is 85 points and you can get a vox network for cheap than that.

I don't really like the idea of Vendettas outflanking and carrying melta units. Reason is Vendettas are long range anti tank and are meant to be firing lascannons not transporting something and firing only a single lascannon which puts itself into melta range thank-you nicely

Not sure what the Veterans are meant to be doing. You have one other Vendetta which one squad can go in but the other will be on foot which means they won't get the meltas into range.

Bad weapon synergy with meltas and autocannons. Autocannon are long range meltas short range so they won't get ever in range unless someone drives too close by then it will be too late or you have to move to fire them meaning no firing autocannons. Not good. Also no Commissar means the entire Platoon could run off if beaten in combat.

HWTs are ok but need Lord Commissar for stubborn bubble so stop then running away.

Sentinels are cool but better in singles. Would rather have more Vendettas.

Vanquisher is crap and why is it outflanking when it has massive range? Doesn't need side armour shots with 2D6 armour pen anyway.

Could be a better list.

I have found Kell to be worth it especialy with a Vox Network. He can use Creed LD 10 on the Special Weapons Platoons, It won't keep them from running away, but it will get them into back in the Fight.

mercer wrote:Creed is cool but Kell is not. Kell is 85 points and you can get a vox network for cheap than that.

Can't put voxes in heavy weapons squads, why waste getting rid of the CCS plasma for a Vox with one unit (blob) with a vox? And Sir, Kell is freaking amazing for giving my Orders to any non-vehicle unit and using Creed's Leadership 10, not their leadership 7. He also is a regimental standard which also gives a 12" Moral and Pinning re-roll. I would look to add on a Lord Commissar before take Kell away. Besides, worse comes to worse he is a body guard and give the unit a power fist or a power weapon.

mercer wrote:I don't really like the idea of Vendettas outflanking and carrying melta units. Reason is Vendettas are long range anti tank and are meant to be firing lascannons not transporting something and firing only a single lascannon which puts itself into melta range thank-you nicely

Means the Vendetta is now a scoring unit as the SWS is a troop choice. Your right, the squad doesn't need the meltas and I considered making it a naked squad. But now the option is there for a suicide grav chute insertion if needed.

mercer wrote:Not sure what the Veterans are meant to be doing. You have one other Vendetta which one squad can go in but the other will be on foot which means they won't get the meltas into range.

They are ment to camp in cover between the blob, CCS, and HWSs and shoot mech that gets through the hail of AC fire. They are also to cover the flanks of the blob, CCS, and HWSs from out-flanking units. THe core of the force sits back in the middle in cover, with these two units roughly 24" apart from each other and 12" from the CCS.

mercer wrote:Bad weapon synergy with meltas and autocannons. Autocannon are long range meltas short range so they won't get ever in range unless someone drives too close by then it will be too late or you have to move to fire them meaning no firing autocannons. Not good. Also no Commissar means the entire Platoon could run off if beaten in combat.

I disagree with your theory, as I will not move the blob to get in melta range. The melta is there incase something like a Drop pod Dread lands right next to it. The Meltaguns can also be used at 12" for anti-terminator fire. If the plasmaguns were better at AT fire, I would upgrade in a heatbeat. But then no one would use Meltaguns, right? Besides, I would rather have them then come across the situation where I wish I had them.

mercer wrote:HWTs are ok but need Lord Commissar for stubborn bubble so stop then running away.

Point taken. But that is a very small bubble...

mercer wrote:Sentinels are cool but better in singles. Would rather have more Vendettas.

Can't afford them right now.

mercer wrote:Vanquisher is crap and why is it outflanking when it has massive range? Doesn't need side armour shots with 2D6 armour pen anyway.

I don't have to out-flank it to be honest, but if I lose and they go first on turn 1 I would like the option so they don't blow it up before it does what it is suppose to do. Vanquisher is only crap vs infantry, nothing else can do what it does. The Lascannon can make use of the side and rear shots and to be frank, I have a better chance to penetrate from the side or rear than from the front against most things. I can't fail to at least glance AV 10 with it. Dice rolls are dice rolls, why make things harder than they need to be... besides, I /CAN/ out-flank it, so why shouldn't I? Who expects a out-flanking Russ!?

mercer wrote:Could be a better list.

Then make one... that is the point of this post. It is easy to tear things down, but barring the Lord Commissar, you never really added anything to the list. Everything else you said is a matter of opinon or conjecture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlkTom wrote: Editied list with the Lord Commissar added to the list, using some of the reductions mentioned in my first post.

CCS - 305pts
Creed
Kell
meltagun
Lascannon
Astropath
Camo Cloaks

Lord Commissar - 70pts (In blob Squad)

PCS - 195pts (Out-flanking)
Al'Rahem
4x Meltaguns
Chimera (Hull HF, Turret ML)

PIS - 115pts (Out-flanking)
Meltagun
Chimera (Hull HF, Turret ML)

PIS - 115pts (Out-flanking)
Meltagun
Chimera (Hull HF, Turret ML)

Special Weapon Squad - 65pts (In Vendetta, Out-flanking)
3x Meltaguns

Vets - 130pts
3x Melta
Sentries

Vets - 130pts
3x Melta
Sentries

PCS - 50pts
4x Flamers

PIS - 70pts (blobbed)
Meltagun
Auto-Cannon

PIS - 70pts (blobbed)
Meltagun
Auto-Cannon

HWS - 75pts
3x Auto-Cannons

HWS - 75pts
3x Auto-Cannons

HWS - 75pts
3x Auto-Cannons

2x Scout Sentnials squad - 80pts (Out-flanking)
Auto-Cannon

2x Scout Sentnials squad - 80pts (Out-flanking)
Auto-Cannon

Vendetta - 130pts (Out-Flanking)

Leman Russ Vanquisher - 170pts (Out-flanking via Creed)
Lascannon

= 2000pts

BlkTom wrote:

mercer wrote:Creed is cool but Kell is not. Kell is 85 points and you can get a vox network for cheap than that.

Can't put voxes in heavy weapons squads, why waste getting rid of the CCS plasma for a Vox with one unit (blob) with a vox? And Sir, Kell is freaking amazing for giving my Orders to any non-vehicle unit and using Creed's Leadership 10, not their leadership 7. He also is a regimental standard which also gives a 12" Moral and Pinning re-roll. I would look to add on a Lord Commissar before take Kell away. Besides, worse comes to worse he is a body guard and give the unit a power fist or a power weapon.

I know about voxes in HWTs but I didn't say put them in those units . A bit crap a Guardsmen cannot carry a special weapon and a back pack raido...I don't think Kell is that good. LD7 is just for HWTs and doesn't apply to others. Standard well 5 guys will be running off and you can get a standard for cheaper anyway. I think it's a power weap he has but could be wrong though power fist is crap when a T3 4+ armour save guy is striking last plus you won't be in combat anyway really at the back of the board and if you are then more likely will be from a outflanking unit and you will probably be dead.

mercer wrote:I don't really like the idea of Vendettas outflanking and carrying melta units. Reason is Vendettas are long range anti tank and are meant to be firing lascannons not transporting something and firing only a single lascannon which puts itself into melta range thank-you nicely

Means the Vendetta is now a scoring unit as the SWS is a troop choice. Your right, the squad doesn't need the meltas and I considered making it a naked squad. But now the option is there for a suicide grav chute insertion if needed.

Indeed it is but you can get any troop choice into that unit later in the game and move onto a objective.

mercer wrote:Not sure what the Veterans are meant to be doing. You have one other Vendetta which one squad can go in but the other will be on foot which means they won't get the meltas into range.

They are ment to camp in cover between the blob, CCS, and HWSs and shoot mech that gets through the hail of AC fire. They are also to cover the flanks of the blob, CCS, and HWSs from out-flanking units. THe core of the force sits back in the middle in cover, with these two units roughly 24" apart from each other and 12" from the CCS.

If Veterans are camping they have the worst weapons ever as never going to get into range at all. Meltas are only affective really against outflanking armour not units. With meltas they won't get into range unless someone is dumb enough to drive close to them.

[quote[

mercer wrote:Bad weapon synergy with meltas and autocannons. Autocannon are long range meltas short range so they won't get ever in range unless someone drives too close by then it will be too late or you have to move to fire them meaning no firing autocannons. Not good. Also no Commissar means the entire Platoon could run off if beaten in combat.

I disagree with your theory, as I will not move the blob to get in melta range. The melta is there incase something like a Drop pod Dread lands right next to it. The Meltaguns can also be used at 12" for anti-terminator fire. If the plasmaguns were better at AT fire, I would upgrade in a heatbeat. But then no one would use Meltaguns, right? Besides, I would rather have them then come across the situation where I wish I had them.

*shakes head* Just... stop. If that is your best shot at making a outflanking guard list, just please stop there. The flaws in that list make my gums ache.

That's your list though with your outflanking units..looks like you're shaking your head at your own list :( .

Good luck with your list.

My list and your list are not alike at all.

You call Kell and the Vanquisher crap, but you put in heavy support that can't fire inside of 24" and are unreliable in hitting. Those weapons are as much of a threat to the outflanking units as the enemy is.

Nothing good will come of dragging this on, let us agree to disagree. You either fail in seeing or understanding what I am attempting to do. Melta-vet chimera-rush is apparently the only tactic you understand.

it's a fact the Vanquisher is crap and you fail to see that. You also fail to realise that the Manticores can direct fire, the Colossus can't but if that's a problem switch it for a Manticore.

The rest is the same as yours except with better weapon synergy

What you fail to do is write good lists with good synergy. You also fail to realise the list I wrote is virtually identical so yours just with different wargear so if the one I wrote fails to outflank then so does yours as utimately it's your list. What I think you should do is actually listen to people and stop posting poor lists as suggestions to others as what you think is "pretty good" is a world of difference between a true pretty good list. Perhaps you should actually practice what you preach.

Actualy a Vanquisher with 1 Lascannon, Pask and two others to absorb damage. Without the Blast markers you can couse alot of Damage to most thing real heavly and still Move.