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RuleBook, page 44, RH column, the "except for Cover Saves" sentence and the rest.

Let's say player Bob's Wyches have earned Fearless status with 3 pain tokens, but they lose a combat, by 4 wounds. He thinks that according to the cited passage, they can use their Invulnerable h2h Save against the No Retreat wounds.

Fran says no, it's no longer h2h, so only the army saves apply.

Who is right?

Dodge - "against wounds caused by close combat attacks."

That's a very specific wording. If it had said "against wounds inflicted in close combat" then it might work. As it is, it does not.

ETA - P44 tells you that there is no prohibition against using invulnerable saves. That does not mean that the dodge save can be used. The shooting rules tell us that invulnerable saves may be taken against normal shooting attacks, doesn't mean that dodge applies.

Scott-S6 wrote:ETA - P44 tells you that there is no prohibition against using invulnerable saves.

Right. Okay. So how do you come to this conclusion/interpretation:

Scott-S6 wrote:That does not mean that the dodge save can be used.

?

No Retreat says, "All types of Saving throws, except for Cover Saves, can be taken against these wounds."

I interpret that as All types includes the wyches' crappy Armor Save and their Invuln/Dodge, "all". The only noted exception is Cover.

So, politely I ask, can you cite something else than:

Scott-S6 wrote:The shooting rules tell us that invulnerable saves may be taken against normal shooting attacks, doesn't mean that dodge applies.

... because we're not talking about shooting rules, nor a shooting situation.

We're talking about No Retreat wounds.

No Retreat wounds are not "wounds caused by close combat attacks." They are caused because you lost combat.

So the Dodge - "against wounds caused by close combat attacks." would not apply and you would have to take armor saves Vs the No Retreat wounds.

However demons, that have no armor save and only an Invuln save can use their Invuln save against no retreat wounds.

As above

NR! wounds are NOT caused by close combat attacks, they are caused by the NR! rule. No Dodge save

Brothererekose wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:ETA - P44 tells you that there is no prohibition against using invulnerable saves.

Right. Okay. So how do you come to this conclusion/interpretation:

Scott-S6 wrote:That does not mean that the dodge save can be used.

?
No Retreat says, "All types of Saving throws, except for Cover Saves, can be taken against these wounds."
I interpret that as All types includes the wyches' crappy Armor Save and their Invuln/Dodge, "all". The only noted exception is Cover.

No retreat tells us that invulnerable saves may be taken. If I had an invulnerable that only worked against shooting attacks would I be able to use it? No, because no retreat wounds are not shooting attacks. Likewise, the dodge invulnerable only works against close combat attacks. No retreat wounds are not close combat attacks.

Brothererekose wrote:We're talking about No Retreat wounds.

If you want to use the dodge save against no retreat wounds you need to find a way to show that they are "wounds caused by close combat attacks".